Russian invasion of Ukraine

This may sound naive, but wouldn't it be worst case for Putin if 500,000 people in Kiev would flood the streets and also park all their cars on the streets and inviting their Russian brothers on a tea at home?

1st step of course seems to be fighting back in a general mobilization
but Putin's power is military combat.

A civil revolution live on CNN would dismantle his threats.

Imagine a youth "Ukranian for Future" movement would be out in the streets. Putin's nightmare.
 
Scottyboi said:
Verified pictures of a Kindergarten that was bombed, fucking vile won't share it on here but it's a war crime.
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Tanks attacking civilian cars this morning.

Russian's stealing Ukrainian vehicles and dressing up as Ukrainian soldiers.

They've got a lot of war crimes to answer for.
 
blueinsa said:
Russia will be fighting their own Donbas and Luhansk campaign for years to come all across Ukraine.

They have bitten off far more than they can chew here imo.
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They had great success when they went in to Afghanistan, not.

Crept out years later with their tails between their legs.
 
Gray said:
They had great success when they went in to Afghanistan, not.

Crept out years later with their tails between their legs.
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History, even our own very recent history tells us that conventional armies and forces do not win against opponents that take to the streets and shadows like Ukranians will.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Ever seen Zinny shirk a tackle or feign injury?
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Back 35 years ago, pre Berlin Wall fall, I made the mistake of calling a Ukrainian lady, Russian, got a right earful…
Back 37 years ago, I made the mistake of calling a Greek Cypriot lady, Turkish, got a right earful and a kick…

…these days I’m Donald Trump’s foreign advisor…
 
MCFC1993 said:
I think that's one of the things that has caught Putin off guard, the will of the Ukrainian people.

They've even got prominent Ukrainian stars taking up arms, Zhan Beleniuk a greco-roman gold medalist in Tokyo 2020 (now a politician) has taken up arms, Klitschko has taken up arms, Usyk went back to Ukraine to see how he could help.
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People defending their homeland are always gonna fight harder and longer than an invading army, especially if deep down the invaders know it's not right.
 
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ninjamonkey said:
It's a sad day when the world of sport is seemingly doing more to support Ukraine than most of the Western worlds governments. If I was Ukrainian I'd be livid at the response from the rest of the world to this.
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Again it’s not fair or true to say this.

Ukraine government has never asked for military help on the ground and they understand why it could never be given.

The world is pretty much united in its condemnation of Russia and sanctions are huge with more to come.

They are not alone.
 
bluesteel said:
Sure and Putin probably is a megalomaniac.

Russia have had a military base in Crimea for centuries, it’s where they have their Black Sea fleet, and is of massive strategic import should the need come for them to defend themselves.

Since the break up of the USSR Russia have leased the naval base from Ukraine.

When it looked like the Ukrainian people wanted to join the EU and more pertinently NATO it would have meant Russia losing the naval base and having a US naval base there in it’s place.

There was also the likelihood of a US military base and missile system going into Ukraine.

These are the facts as I see them.

When Russia lost its puppet president in Ukraine in the 2014 coup, the writing was on the wall that they would join NATO as they were provisionally accepted in 2008.

Almost instantaneously they annexed Crimea, there was no way that the Russians were going to give up their strategic naval base and have a US naval base replace it, the thought of that to the Russia admirals would have been incomprehensible.

Again, straight after the pro Russian president was ousted in a violent coup in Ukraine, fighting broke out in the East of the country, where it is mainly Russian speaking and not Ukrainian speaking, where it is mainly pro Russian and not pro European. This suited Putin as it meant Ukraine couldn’t join NATO, the Ukrainian army went into the east and the Russian army went into the west, a ceasefire was agreed and there was an agreement signed.

The Russian rebels held Ukrainian land in the east, and it had by an largely died down by 2021.

Russia approached NATO, and said to NATO that they want Crimea recognised as Russian and also guarantees that Ukraine will not become a US military base by being in NATO.

NATO refused. Why? Russia moved their troops to the Ukraine border, they were clearly saying in further negotiations if you do not give us guarantees, we will invade. NATO said no, why? Why would a defensive alliance, both allow and cause the invasion of Ukraine? I’m not talking about Ukraine joining the EU here, Russia were perfectly happy for them to join the EU this is about losing Sevastopol to the US and NATO and not having a US military base in Ukraine. Why do the US need military bases and missiles next to Russia?

Honestly I’m sick of NATO and the US they are jeopardising our security not enhancing it. Seriously what next? Asking Taiwan to join?
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It’s got fucking nothing to do with Russia that Ukraine wants to join NATO. It’s simply Russian paranoia, over the top self-importance, and their total disdain for Ukraine sovereignty that makes them think it’s their business.

The fact that more and more of Russia’s European neighbours have asked to join and have joined NATO tells you more about Russia than it does NATO. There’s an open-door joining policy to NATO; and it’s been Poland, Hungary and Czechia, then Bulgaria, Romania and then the Baltic countries and some Balkan countries that joined, and then potentially Ukraine who have wanted to join. They weren’t bribed or forced or threatened to join, nor were their elections tampered with from NATO, nor were NATO puppets put in their Govts, nor were they invaded.

They all wanted to join NATO. They did that for their own security, being part of a wider string group and through fear of Russia.

Russia had been refusing to turn up to G8 summits, and other conferences when olive branches had been handed out. At one stage there was even discussion in possibly asking Russia to join NATO. In the end they were kicked out of the G8 for fundamentally being untrustworthy dickheads with no intention of being a friendly nation.

Yanukovych gaoled all opposition leaders after the 2010 election and when Ukraine had agreed to join the EU in 2013 he refused to sign the papers on Russian orders, and instead went with the Russia-Belarus-Kazakhstan customs union despite even the more pro-Russian Donbas region being mostly against that move never mind Ukraine as a whole (no area of even Eastern Ukraine was more than 22% positive of that move, with even the most pro-Russian areas being 30% positive of joining the EU). Also there were reports from the OSCE and US universities in 2014 looking back at the 2010 Ukraine election that showed information of election fraud. He then applied 46% of the Govt’s budget to the Donbas region despite that region only being 11% of Ukraine’s total population.

The violent coup you mention with no context as to why it came about (as if you think it was uncalled for and came out of nowhere) came after all this. Then, after protestors demanded Yanukovych to resign after the above were met with violence from the Police, it then escalated into riots. He was then ousted and he fled to Russia.

The detail paints a very different picture to what you suggest happened!

Russia were not given guarantees because they’ve not been shown to be trustworthy for a long time, they’ve been shown to be spreading misinformation, not turning up to summits and conferences when invited before or because they made their puppet Ukraine leader go against the wishes of the Ukraine public when they wanted to join the EU, and invaded Ukraine over 8 years. Why should NATO talk to Russia about Ukraine’s own sovereign choice anyway? It’s not Russia’s say, it’s Ukraine’s.

NATO talking to Russia about Ukraine joining would be like NATO talking to the UK about Ireland joining NATO.
 
Ukraine and Russia have quite a shared history, a bit like Scotland and England.
Other nations that were part of the Russian Empire or more latterly the USSR/Warsaw Pact like Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Lithuania had a relationship to Russia as England does to France, Germany, Italy.
As such I think NATO are letting this go.
However if Russia were to invade Estonia or Poland, then we'd react militarily.
 
blueinsa said:
History, even our own very recent history tells us that conventional armies and forces do not win against opponents that take to the streets and shadows like Ukranians will.
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There was some army dude on TV last night and he said the last thing you want to do is go through built up suburban areas in a tank, thay are easy pickings from above.
 
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