Russian invasion of Ukraine

robbieh said:
I'm sure you're not surprised by the response to you posting that video.
He's asking people to think and a lot of people are uncomfortable with doing that.
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Didn't think it would get as much hate, but yes - does appear people are not able to look at the broader picture and all the elements at play here.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I think we are especially bothered by this because it's on the doorstep of Europe and frankly Ukrainians look like us. If they were a bit further away and brown or yellow we'd probably just shake our heads, shrug our shoulders and think it's not good but ultimately get on with our lives. We take exactly the same stance as India/UAE are here on various conflicts and atrocities around the world every day.
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I disagree.

And I haven't yet seen any Ukranians that look like me.

Although I have seen one that's looks a lot like KdB.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I've been a fairly regular visitor to Cyprus for 20 years and the Russian presence there has grown massively. Largely because after the Greek financial crisis Cyprus (Greek bit) was buggered and to generate cash they cheerfully gave out citizenship and a shiny EU passport in return for largish property investment. For Russians with cash this represented a neat opportunity to get sun, sea, sand, EU citizenship, and nicely laundered money. They've also been ramping up the cloak and dagger stuff over there against UK/NATO interests.
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Same happened in Malta. Always loads of rude miserable Russians there in large numbers for that reason n’all.
 
domalino said:
Go on then, expand on that. Which points is he “bang on” with?
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For a start that the era of 'goodies and baddies is over' and most major powers these days are just 'baddies'.

Literally every major power has been involved in morally corrupt bullshit over the last few decades.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
Don'tr really rate a lot of the shit that Brand comes out with, but it's worth having a look at the view outside the main narrative.

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I'm not sure of the relevance of what he's talking about. He's mostly talking of an anti-war stance of a war that isn't happening and no-one wants. The only war that is actually happening is the one that he doesn't really criticise, he just deflects that by saying the west basically cannot do anything but stand, watch and tell Putin he's naughty.

In reality the views we have of our own position is irrelevant because we are not going to go to war with Russia. The only people that matter then are Ukrainians but I seriously doubt that they're thinking oh I'm so glad that the west aren't getting involved because they were such gits in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya etc....

He can argue these stupid things from his safe and privileged position in London however put him as a Ukrainian in Kiev and it changes quite a bit. He'd soon forget the failings of the west and actually he'd be calling for NATO's entire military effort to come and destroy Russia.
 
Akai said:
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I’ve seen this video posted three times now. So I’ll again repeat something he says at 10mins 30secs to show you how reliable it is…

“This of course is not the conventional wisdom of the United States, and in fact, except for Steve Cohen… [98 year old]Henry Kissinger and maybe a handful of other people, there are not many people who agree with me!”

www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org

The Ukraine crisis according to John J. Mearsheimer: Impeccable Logic, Wrong Facts

Dr Alexander Motyl challenges John Mearsheimer's assertion that the ongoing crisis in Ukraine is purely the fault of the West, arguing that Russia's actions have gone beyond the rational Realism that Mearshimer has posited.
www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org


He’s also been accused of being an anti-Semite with his book about Israel.
 
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inbetween said:
I'm not sure of the relevance of what he's talking about. He's mostly talking of an anti-war stance of a war that isn't happening and no-one wants. The only war that is actually happening is the one that he doesn't really criticise.

In reality the views we have of our own position is irrelevant because we are not going to go to war with Russia. The only people that matter are Ukrainians and I seriously doubt that they're thinking oh I'm so glad that the west isn't getting involved because they were such gits in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya etc....

He can argue these stupid things from his safe and privileged position in London however put him as a Ukrainian in Kiev and it changes quite a bit. He'd soon forget the failings of the west and actually he'd be calling for NATO's entire military effort to come and destroy Russia.
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He's trying to get people to think about the broader geopolitical issues at play here and what sort of events around it are causing this.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
For a start that the era of 'goodies and baddies is over' and most major powers these days are just 'baddies'.

Literally every major power has been involved in morally corrupt bullshit over the last few decades.
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Jesus Christ, you think that’s a revelatory take? Everyone over 15 years old knows this.

This perfectly sums up Brands new niche, thinking that “everyone’s a baddie” is an enlightened opinion. It’s actually the one viewpoint that’s more simplistic and uninformed than “goodies and baddies”.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
Feel genuinely sorry for the people of Ukraine. But as outsiders, the way I see it it’s literally NATO and the West causing trouble on one side vs an egotistical and expansionist Russia on the other side.

As always we are just pawns in geo politics and the west also has blood on their hands.
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You better have thick skin, that’s what my stance is and have been called all sorts!
 
domalino said:
Jesus Christ, you think that’s a revelatory take? Everyone over 15 years old knows this.
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Based on some of the posts over the last few days here I don't see that.

'We need to double down on military spending'

'We need to send all the armies in to destroy Russia'
 
Bazzmand Show said:
Didn't think it would get as much hate, but yes - does appear people are not able to look at the broader picture and all the elements at play here.
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It's easier for people to understand stuff if it's stripped down to basic good v evil starwars/lord of the rings morality. The downside of this is that it causes polarisation rather than understanding. The Walt quote from Brand sums up the complexity of this situation 'its possible to believe russian actions are illegitimate, while at the same time thinking US/NATO policy has contributed to this happening.' I'm happy to think this, while very much not being on Russias 'side', other people find this uncomfortable.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
It's easier for people to understand stuff if it's stripped down to basic good v evil starwars/lord of the rings morality. The downside of this is that it causes polarisation rather than understanding. The Walt quote from Brand sums up the complexity of this situation 'its possible to believe russian actions are illegitimate, while at the same time thinking US/NATO policy has contributed to this happening. I'm happy to think this, while very much not being on Russias 'side', other people find this uncomfortable.
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Yep exactly.

What Russia is doing is disgusting, but the west should also fuck off and stop trying to use Ukraine as some sort of militaristic chess piece.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
Based on some of the posts over the last few days here I don't see that.

'We need to double down on military spending'

'We need to send all the armies in to destroy Russia'
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Yeah of course the first invasion of a European country since 1945 has made people think about defence spending you goon.

As for attacking Russia, no one is advocating that, so stop wumming.
 
domalino said:
Yeah of course the first invasion of a European country since 1945 has made people think about defence spending you goon.

As for attacking Russia, no one is advocating that, so stop wumming.
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You joking?

That's literally been a bulk of a lot of the posts.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
It's easier for people to understand stuff if it's stripped down to basic good v evil starwars/lord of the rings morality. The downside of this is that it causes polarisation rather than understanding. The Walt quote from Brand sums up the complexity of this situation 'its possible to believe russian actions are illegitimate, while at the same time thinking US/NATO policy has contributed to this happening.' I'm happy to think this, while very much not being on Russias 'side', other people find this uncomfortable.
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Why don’t you explain how NATO policy lead to this war? It’s a Russian propaganda line, but they don’t actually expand on it, so let’s see if you can actually come up with reasoning that doesn’t fall apart immediately.
 
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