Russian invasion of Ukraine

Metal Biker said:
<Putin's> arguments, fears and justifications are laughable, for want of a better word, and aren't worth debating or discussing.
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Isn't that a bit short-sighted? Surely conflicts are best avoided by people putting themselves in others' shoes and trying to see things from a different perspective? Isn't that the whole basis of negotiation and compromise?

No-one condones what he has done, but I find it pretty amazing that such is the jingoism of some on here, they are not only are unprepared to think about what brought this about, they want to shout down others who are actually interested in understanding and trying to learn from this. (I don't mean you, btw).
 
Blue Mist said:
The same thing that is happening in Ukraine for 6-7 days has been happening in Palestine for 50 years.
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How long has a terrorist faction in Ukraine been sending bombs inro Russia prompting them to occupy part of their territory?

Been watching City mostly, so I must have missed that bit on the news.
 
Metal Biker said:
Do you honestly think people on here aren't aware of that?

What do you want to discuss next, why Russia are using bombs instead of harsh words?
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Like I said, I just wanted to write a post to vent a little about my concerns and fears about whats going on in the world, not because I wanted to "tell people how it is". I didnt know you weren't allowed to write stuff people might already know. Thanks mr forum police for telling me, you can send me the fine through a DM.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Isn't that a bit short-sighted? Surely conflicts are best avoided by people putting themselves in others' shoes and trying to see things from a different perspective? Isn't that the whole basis of negotiation and compromise?

No-one condones what he has done, but I find it pretty amazing that such is the jingoism of some on here, they are not only are unprepared to think about what brought this about, they want to shout down others who are actually interested in understanding and trying to learn from this. (I don't mean you, btw).
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He's a madman killing people in another nation that hasn't attacked or threatened him. We want to see things from his point of view why?
 
Vester said:
Like I said, I just wanted to write a post to vent a little about my concerns and fears about whats going on in the world, not because I wanted to "tell people how it is". I didnt know you weren't allowed to write stuff people might already know. Thanks mr forum police for telling me, you can send me the fine through a DM.
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On it's way!
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
If your analogy were apt I'd agree; whereas your analogy is not at all apt.

There's no risk that a western-aligned Ukraine poses any threat - let alone an existential threat - to Russia. Zero. Nada. Nil.

Yet you've bought into this narrative.

So - go on. Outline how, precisely, is it, that a western-aligned Ukraine posses an existential threat to Russia. This idea is so ridiculously stupid that words fail me... but go on, explain how this is possibly so.

For whatever reason, some portion of the western populace such as yourself seem to think that Russia has a point here. Whereas no, they do not.

Russia is led by an ex-KGB man. A man who personally saw to it that Russian apartments were bombed and innocent Russian civilians were killed simply to promote his cause. A man who deploys KGB agents to poison Russian detractors on foreign soil - and to poison them in such a manner that it's clear for all to see that Russia was behind the poisonings.

Putin is a monster. As you've said.

The only restraint against Putin is concerted action to the extent that it's clearly not to his advantage to persue his aggressive policies. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed with regard to The Ukraine.

The best hope now is that the war is so costly that Putin falls far out of favor and is displaced. And I think that this is a distinct possibility. Putin's invasion of the Ukraine is, I think, a huge mistake which might well lead to the end of Putin's reign.
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
If your analogy were apt I'd agree; whereas your analogy is not at all apt.

There's no risk that a western-aligned Ukraine poses any threat - let alone an existential threat - to Russia. Zero. Nada. Nil.

Yet you've bought into this narrative.

So - go on. Outline how, precisely, is it, that a western-aligned Ukraine posses an existential threat to Russia. This idea is so ridiculously stupid that words fail me... but go on, explain how this is possibly so.

For whatever reason, some portion of the western populace such as yourself seem to think that Russia has a point here. Whereas no, they do not.

Russia is led by an ex-KGB man. A man who personally saw to it that Russian apartments were bombed and innocent Russian civilians were killed simply to promote his cause. A man who deploys KGB agents to poison Russian detractors on foreign soil - and to poison them in such a manner that it's clear for all to see that Russia was behind the poisonings.

Putin is a monster. As you've said.

The only restraint against Putin is concerted action to the extent that it's clearly not to his advantage to persue his aggressive policies. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed with regard to The Ukraine.

The best hope now is that the war is so costly that Putin falls far out of favor and is displaced. And I think that this is a distinct possibility. Putin's invasion of the Ukraine is, I think, a huge mistake which might well lead to the end of Putin's reign.
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Please don’t make make assumptions on the way I think.
I know Ukraine (they don’t like being called The Ukraine) do not pose a threat. I know that fact because I am rational and not a state-controlled Soviet. I do also know that we in the West have sleep-walked into this situation. After the Cold War ended we took our eye off the ball and thought everything was solved. Putin and his cronies were a threat then and have been planning this for a very long time. The population have been subdued into thinking the West is the enemy. The only hope is a military coup from the inside, or, God forbid a conflict. If Putin is going to take Ukraine he will not stop there. He is deranged.
 
kaz7 said:
The mad russian reckons it is a war crime for those he is attacking to put snipers on the roof to defend themselves
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If they just laid down their arms, capitualted, accepted Russian supremacy, vowed to no longer collude with the West, everything will be fine. They're killing themselves effectively by not complying with Pootin's orders, I mean, humble request.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
And there you have the reason for the support. Game recognises game.

The video reminded me of those videos you get on Youtube where someone winds up those Indian phone scammers. I was genuinely expecting him to start insulting the guy's mum and sister. Absolutely embarrassing.
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The ironic thing is that the West, for its own reasons, is also turning a blind eye to his atrocities.
 
Vester said:
Nato are of course very concerned about Russia invasion of Ukraine, thats pretty obvious, not sure what your point was.

You say Nato is no threat to Russia, I agree. Thats why I said I think Putin is deranged/paranoid to think so. Russia strongly disagree, as their invasion to Ukraine shows. They think Nato is a huge threat to Russia. They couldnt have made that more clear, they want the US lead war machine (that how they view Nato, not me) to keep its distance. We might disagree and say its not a threat, Nato is just a defense alliance. That doesnt change the fact that Russia thinks it is, and their actions are a result of that.
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They might be afforded a degree of paranoia based upon the number of times they have suffered so heavily in previous conflicts, and by the Americans taking military action or seemingly waltzing into wherever they like, for often rather questionable motives.

I'd cut and paste from Wikipedia just the ones just from 1900 here but there's rather a lot of them, so the list is a bit long.
 
Vester said:
I just find it hard to understand why anyone would think that the reason Russia chooses to invade Ukraine, has anything to do with something else than Ukraines potential Nato expansion
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I agree with your points that Russia may have a genuine and, to some degree at least, legitimate concern about NATO expansion.

But this invasion most definitely does have something else driving it as well. Putin has been quite clear that he has a fascist view of the world. He believes there is one Slavic people, that as a result the existence of a sovereign Ukraine is not legitimate and he is justified in using lethal force to impose this vision on the rest of whatever he decides is the Slavic homeland.

He's openly fascist.
 
Vester said:
Why should I ask myself, I'm not the one saying Russia has anything to fear from Nato. I dont think they do.

I do on the other hand think Russia and Putin fear USA, and by Nato expanding more to the east, they feel like USA is more or less expanding its boarder against them. I think Putin and Russia are very concerned about this, and in no way believe the reasons being said publicly behind it. Countries are often paranoid about these kind of stuff, and dont trust what their enemies say their intentions are. Just like Americans dont trust Russia and China, they dont trust Americans.

I agree with you that Russia are acting like twats. What you fail to consider, is that from Russias point of view, they dont think they are the ones acting like twats. They think USA are the twats, by expanding their territory (thats how they see Nato) against them. From their point of view, USA is not the hero, the world police, who intervene in every countries war and brings order and freedom to the world. From their point of view, USA is the villain, bringing death and destruction all over the world in conflicts they have nothing to do with.
I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that Russia see themselves as the good ones, and USA as the evil.

Not the other way around as we do.
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Putin is an evil, ambitious, despotic, narcissistic asshole. Who wants nothing more than to expand Russia's power.

And so I put this to you.

How does a NATO-aligned Ukraine pose any sort of threat to Russia? At all. Putin claims that it's an existential threat. Outline why this is so if you think that this is true.

Russia is an aggressive nation led by an ex-KGB man.

As such, Putin very much desires the heyday past - Soviet Russia's prominence and influence on the world stage. Putin is a ruthless thug who oversaw the bombings of Russian apartments simply to gain power and prestige.

In Putin you have an intrinsically immoral adversary who cares nothing at all except for personal and national gain. And Putin isn't an idiot. He realizes that it's very much to his advantage to sow discord, confusion, and wherever possible, support for his actions among his adversaries.

And so, unfortunately, some sort of Putin propaganda has struck a cord with you - that some how, some way, Russian invasion of the Ukraine is justified if only The West could see things through Russian eyes.
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Well, you're right. If we could see things through Putin's eyes - the invasion would certainly be reasonable and justified.

And too, if we could see things through Hitler's eyes the killing of approximately 6 million jews during WWII is justified.
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Wake up!
 
Metal Biker said:
How long has a terrorist faction in Ukraine been sending bombs inro Russia prompting them to occupy part of their territory?

Been watching City mostly, so I must have missed that bit on the news.
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You do realise that innocent people live in Palestine don't you.
 
Vester said:
Hopefully you can excuse me since English is my second language, and sometimes that means I will do some spelling mistakes. Hope you understood what I wrote anyway:)
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Fair enough. Apologies for the pedantry.
I understood what you said and don't agree with it at all. I do not believe that the Russians believe in the NATO expansion argument but are simply using it as a pretext for their aggression which, as I've said earlier, is more to do with Putin's megalomania and narcissism than anything else.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
I agree with your points that Russia may have a genuine and, to some degree at least, legitimate concern about NATO expansion.

But this invasion most definitely does have something else driving it as well. Putin has been quite clear that he has a fascist view of the world. He believes there is one Slavic people, that as a result the existence of a sovereign Ukraine is not legitimate and he is justified in using lethal force to impose this vision on the rest of whatever he decides is the Slavic homeland.

He's openly fascist.
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They don't.

NATO is a non-aggressive, defensive organisation that only acts once one of its member is attacked by a non-member. In short, don't attack NATO, NATO won't attack you. Since NATO will never attack Russia first, tell me, where is the legitimate concern come from aside from Putin's own paranoia?
 
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