Russian invasion of Ukraine

Metal Biker said:
He's a madman killing people in another nation that hasn't attacked or threatened him. We want to see things from his point of view why?
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Is it not obvious? Because if we were adequately able to listen to and understand his concerns, we may have been able to find the necessary reassurances or compromises which both sides could have lived with, which might have prevented this in the first place. Is it so inconceivable that had - for example - Ukraine agreed to not join Nato for say 10 years, we could have averted this for perhaps 10 years? Maybe Putin would not be around by then.

Anyway that ship has sailed, massively to everyone's detriment. But I keep being told by those who seem to think they know everything that his next step is Poland or some other non-Nato country. I don't believe it is any more, if indeed it ever was. But it might be a bloody good idea try to figure that out, rather than just assume that he's bonkers and that's all there is to it.
 
Putin calls Macron...

‘It was Putin who called Macron today, according to the Elysée. The call lasted an hour and a half. Macron told Putin: "you are lying to yourself". "There was nothing that Putin said that reassured us", a source in the presidency said. France is preparing for the worst’ @TheEconomist
 
Blue Mist said:
You do realise that innocent people live in Palestine don't you.
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You do realise that innocent people who disapprove of the Israeli Governments actions live in Israel, don't you?

You wouldn;t be trying to use the Israeli/Palestine conflict to try and give some juxtaposition to Putin's actions, are you?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Is it not obvious? Because if we were adequately able to listen to and understand his concerns, we may have been able to find the necessary reassurances or compromises which both sides could have lived with, which might have prevented this in the first place. Is it so inconceivable that had - for example - Ukraine agreed to not join Nato for say 10 years, we could have averted this for perhaps 10 years? Maybe Putin would not be around by then.

Anyway that ship has sailed, massively to everyone's detriment. But I keep being told by those who seem to think they know everything that his next step is Poland or some other non-Nato country. I don't believe it is any more, if indeed it ever was. But it might be a bloody good idea try to figure that out, rather than just assume that he's bonkers and that's all there is to it.
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Ah yes, the old "appeasement" factor.

We or anyone else have no right to tell anyone when they can or cannot join NATO, especially not through threats or acts of violence. And we give it 10 years, then what? We do it then instead of now? Keep kicking that can down the road to appease a fascist dictator? Why?

Here's a wacky idea, we convince Russia to join NATO. NATO members are prohibited from attacking one another! Why won't this idea work? Because Putin is a sociopath.
 
AlgarveBlu said:
How would the points you raise with respect of NATO differ with an EU army on its border? I am curious as I posted a short while ago about this and I think its very relevant to the type of argument you raise about Russia's concern's with Nato on its border which I have seen elsewhere and lets face it is the only reason being given for this invasion.

I am genuinely intrigued why Putin will see a big distinction between NATO versus an EU army with an additional 1,350 km of border through Finland that it will have to contend with.
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Not sure I understand whats your question is, but I will try to answer it from my point of view. If I went down the wrong path, hope its okay!
What matters for Russia is USA, thats who they fear. Russia dont care about the other Nato members in particular, they dont care much about the UK or France since neither of these countries is a major threat to them. USA is. Thats the big difference here, USA is a part of Nato, not EU. I dont think Russias concerns about Nato expanding to Ukraine would be even comparable to what they are now if USA wasn't a part of Nato.

Again this is just me speculating and giving my opining, not facts in any way. I am open to be hear about other ways of thinking if you want to convince me I'm wrong=)
 
BobKowalski said:
The Times seems to take issue with our ‘world leading efforts’.

‘Britain will not be able to sanction Roman Abramovich and other oligarchs for weeks of months - if at all. Foreign Office and National Crime Agency have been unable to prove 'reasonable grounds' for designating oligarchs’ @TheTimes
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If Russian people residing in the UK are here with passport visas stating 'unlimited leave to remain' then they can be booted out if found to be guilty of criminal activity.
 
west didsblue said:
Fair enough. Apologies for the pedantry.
I understood what you said and don't agree with it at all. I do not believe that the Russians believe in the NATO expansion argument but are simply using it as a pretext for their aggression which, as I've said earlier, is more to do with Putin's megalomania and narcissism than anything else.
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You might be right, and I might be wrong! None of us know for sure:)
No matter the reason behind what they are doing, we can agree on that what they are doing is wrong!
 
Vester said:
Nato are of course very concerned about Russia invasion of Ukraine, thats pretty obvious, not sure what your point was.

You say Nato is no threat to Russia, I agree. Thats why I said I think Putin is deranged/paranoid to think so. Russia strongly disagree, as their invasion to Ukraine shows. They think Nato is a huge threat to Russia. They couldnt have made that more clear, they want the US lead war machine (that how they view Nato, not me) to keep its distance. We might disagree and say its not a threat, Nato is just a defense alliance. That doesnt change the fact that Russia thinks it is, and their actions are a result of that.
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Putin basically wants to recreate the Russian empire of pre-1917.

Plus he wants to also maintain russian influence over his neighbours.

He's biggest problem is the likes of Ukraine and Georgia turning their back on him, and looking more towards western democracy and social and financial union.

He only sees NATO as a threat in the context that they stop him throwing his military threats around, and stop his bullying
 
Metal Biker said:
They don't.

NATO is a non-aggressive, defensive organisation that only acts once one of its member is attacked by a non-member. In short, don't attack NATO, NATO won't attack you. Since NATO will never attack Russia first, tell me, where is the legitimate concern come from aside from Putin's own paranoia?
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Kosovo, Afghanistan for Nato missions. See also Iraq, Libya for some Nato countries acting without threat to themselves.

Like you, I don't believe NATO poses any threat to Russia, but I can well see why Russia could see it differently.

But as I also wrote, I think the fascist ideology of Putin is, by far, the bigger driver here.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Kosovo, Afghanistan for Nato missions. See also Iraq, Libya for some Nato countries acting without threat to themselves.

Like you, I don't believe NATO poses any threat to Russia, but I can well see why Russia could see it differently.

But as I also wrote, I think the fascist ideology of Putin is, by far, the bigger driver here.
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Yeah because they're led by a paranoid, imperialistic sociopath.
 
BobKowalski said:
Putin calls Macron...

‘It was Putin who called Macron today, according to the Elysée. The call lasted an hour and a half. Macron told Putin: "you are lying to yourself". "There was nothing that Putin said that reassured us", a source in the presidency said. France is preparing for the worst’ @TheEconomist
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"...preparing for the worst" - I wonder is that the worst for Ukraine, the worst for France or the worst for the rest of the world?

Dark days.
 
Metal Biker said:
Ah yes, the old "appeasement" factor.

We have no right to tell anyone when they can or cannot join NATO. And we give it 10 eyars, then what? We do it then instead of now? Keep kicking that can down the road to appease a fascist dictator? Why?
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Again, is it not obvious? Because we absolutely DO have a massive problem today, and in 10 years we may or may not have had a massive problem. Anyone who takes a load of shit in preference to only a chance of a load of shit, is not thinking it through.

And what do you mean we have no right to tell anyone when they can or cannot join NATO? What nonsense. NATO could decide not to allow Ukraine to join, just like the EU doesn't allow Turkey to join. And anyway, perhaps if a western delegation had said to Zelensky, "Look, we think there's a very strong possibility that you will be invaded UNLESS you make a commitment not to join NATO for 10 years", whose to say he would not have agreed.

This is not the old "appeasement factor", which you obviously put at the top as if it's something to be ashamed of. It's about understanding the others position, talking, debating and finding a compromise that - whilst not ideal for either side - is something that both sides can live with. And which is massively better than the alternative of all out war.
 
grunge said:
Moldova just applied for EU membership and is applying for fast track NATO membership.
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just-get-it-done-mad.gif
 
Grassland Blue said:
If Russian people residing in the UK are here with passport visas stating 'unlimited leave to remain' then they can be booted out if found to be guilty of criminal activity.
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Then the issue is they probably haven't been found guilty of criminal activity then. And also the money they gave to the tories.
 
Metal Biker said:
Yeah because they're led by a paranoid, imperialistic sociopath.
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As I said, I view Putin as a fascist.

But if, say Mexico joined a defensive alliance with Russia, I'm sure the USA would see that as a threat. Likewise, it's understandable why NATO expansion could be seen by Russia as a threat.

That can be true without being a justification for this war of aggression.
 
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