Russian invasion of Ukraine

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Don't think we learned anything new from this did we? He wants control of Ukraine and will not stop unless/until his demands are met. We knew that already.

We rarely get to see him in the raw, going off on tangents, reinforcing the narratives about Neo-Nazis.

Certainly so, when we can see with our own eyes and ears all the contradictory evidence to a watching world over the past eight days.

What we learned is he is not for turning, beyond negotiating with, he has doubled down and, as I said the other day, I fear he doesn't care there is no off ramp.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Then you're as daft as him.

And you're very much mistaken.

 

[kaz7]

Mad vlad is not realising this is a social media covered war, we see everything

 

[inbetween]

Why should I ask myself, I'm not the one saying Russia has anything to fear from Nato. I dont think they do.

I do on the other hand think Russia and Putin fear USA, and by Nato expanding more to the east, they feel like USA is more or less expanding its boarder against them. I think Putin and Russia are very concerned about this, and in no way believe the reasons being said publicly behind it. Countries are often paranoid about these kind of stuff, and dont trust what their enemies say their intentions are. Just like Americans dont trust Russia and China, they dont trust Americans.

I agree with you that Russia are acting like twats. What you fail to consider, is that from Russias point of view, they dont think they are the ones acting like twats. They think USA are the twats, by expanding their territory (thats how they see Nato) against them. From their point of view, USA is not the hero, the world police, who intervene in every countries war and brings order and freedom to the world. From their point of view, USA is the villain, bringing death and destruction all over the world in conflicts they have nothing to do with.
I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that Russia see themselves as the good ones, and USA as the evil.

Not the other way around as we do.

The US is not expanding its territory, NATO is not a country or state in the US and it holds no territory. NATO has no jurisdiction nor command over any country. Russia may view that differently but then all hope is lost for those people because it just isn't true.

Ukraine does not want to become part of the US, it wants to join NATO to get protection from Russia and maybe even join the EU for prosperity. That's why Ukrainians chucked out the Putin backed president in 2014 and later voted in the current president a couple of years ago because his policies are to do just that.

If Putin was truly worried about NATO or anyone else then he wouldn't of invaded Ukraine. The reason why is every single nuclear armed submarine currently has its missiles pointed at Moscow. The US could even nuke Moscow from the mainland US using ground launched nukes which are based thousands of miles away from the Russian border.

 

[Metal Biker]

The full read out from the call between Macron and Putin is scary.

Sadly, the only way this is ending is with the full scale destruction of Ukranian cities and/or Putin is ousted - which is unlikely.

Puts paid to all the "He only wants half of it" arguments on here.

We can file them with the "Putin won't invade" lot. :)

 

[Metal Biker]

Mad vlad is not realising this is a social media covered war, we see everything

How would he, he's banned it all! :)

 

[Chippy_boy]

We rarely get to see him in the raw, going off on tangents, reinforcing the narratives about Neo-Nazis.

Certainly so, when we can see with our own eyes and ears all the contradictory evidence to a watching world over the past eight days.

What we learned is he is not for turning, beyond negotiating with, he has doubled down and, as I said the other day, I fear he doesn't care there is no off ramp.

Was there a video or something? I only saw excerpt quotes.

I am disheartened but I have to say unsurprised to hear what you say. Sounds like the negotiated-solution ship sailed the moment he invaded, if not before. I think the dropped ball - if any has been dropped - was to not have done everything humanly possible to prevent him invading in the first place. I don't think we spelled out anything like clearly enough just how bad this was going to be for Russia and for him personally, and that there was "a golden bridge" for him to cross, PROVIDED he didn't invade. Sounds like it is too late now.

 

[Grassland Blue]

Fuck me looks like I’m going to have to increase my eBay bid to £2 now :-(

2 euro should do it!
Then again there's always bitcoin...

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Was there a video or something? I only saw excerpt quotes.

I am disheartened but I have to say unsurprised to hear what you say. Sounds like the negotiated-solution ship sailed the moment he invaded, if not before. I think the dropped ball - if any has been dropped - was to not have done everything humanly possible to prevent him invading in the first place. I don't think we spelled out anything like clearly enough just how bad this was going to be for Russia and for him personally, and that there was "a golden bridge" for him to cross, PROVIDED he didn't invade. Sounds like it is too late now.

Yes mate, he's just been venting into the camera on Sky for ten minutes awarding medals to his dead general.

 

[kaz7]

How would he, he's banned it all! :)

Good point lol

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

You then more or less suggest I said the Russian invasion is justified and think its reasonable it becomes obvious you are just a lying piece of shit. I said the exact opposite on several occasions, I dont know if its just your low IQ, or if you purposely are lying trying to make it seems like I somehow think Russia has ANY right to do what they are doing. Just because we disagree in our belief on why Russia is doing this, we dont disagree in our belief that they shouldn't be doing this. Like I said, quite clearly on several occasions, I think what Russia is doing is wrong, I think Putin is a maniac with no respect for human life, and I hope Russia gets punished for their crimes.

For all your ramblings about Putin being a horrible human being, yes I know. I think most of the people in the world (outside of Russia at least) knows. You seem to think you need to convince me on this fact, if you read my post its quite obvious I think he is a horrible human being. Not sure how its even possible to not understand this if you read what I wrote.

What you fail to realise is that in Russia, they see themselves as the good guys (Note to idiot, this does not mean I think they are the good guys). I know it might seem insane, but in their deranged world, USA is the real villain of the world, the military death machine who is responsible for more murders in war than all the other countries in the world combined, the country who is involved or is responsible in the majority of the worlds wars since WWII. And now they are expanding closer and closer to Russia, its only a matter of time before they will try to invade them too. This is how Russia sees USA. And this is why he sees USA moving closer to them as an existential threat, Russia might be next! Again, since you obviously have a hard time understanding what I write, this is NOT what I think, this is what Russia think.

´

Thanks for your carefully regurgitated Russian propaganda. In essence that the USA is a huge threat and thus that Russian aggression - if not justified outright - is at least foreseeable.

If only the expansionist USA would stop invading its neighbors and claiming their territory as its own. First Canada invaded and Mexico overrun and... oh, well wait a minute... I guess that didn't happen.

What about USA foreign wars?

Admittedly we fucked up big time with Iraq - under a Republican president (whom I respect, actually, but was far too willing to blame someone tangible for 9/11). We made a massive mistake - but so too did the UK.

Anyhow, that Russia somehow thinks that the USA is evil incarnate and poses an existential threat - is wrong-think. That you buy into this narrative is you simply buying into Russian justification for expansion.

Russia will float a zillion ideas in support of its excuse to expand - you've bought into the anti-USA narrative.

Russia doesn't see themselves as "the good guys" at all. Russians in support of Putin's invasion of the Ukraine - are nationalistic. It's not so-much anti-USA - though this plays some part - it's mostly - to borrow a phrase - Russia uber alles.

But go on - hate the USA and claim that Russian is at least partially justified.

I'm sure that the Ukrainians agree - not Russia's fault. Goddamn USA responsible for the invasion!

FFS - get a clue.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If Putin was truly worried about NATO or anyone else then he wouldn't of invaded Ukraine. The reason why is every single nuclear armed submarine currently has its missiles pointed at Moscow. The US could even nuke Moscow from the mainland US using ground launched nukes which are based thousands of miles away from the Russian border.

There's just a tiny weeny flaw in that argument in that for all practical purposes, the US cannot nuke Russia and Putin - and everyone else BTW - knows it.

 

[Dadsupportedthem]

Well, it's official.

This **** Putin is bat-shit crazy enough to do anything.

Every word from his mouth is a lie.

Doing his addresses on Zoom now. The murdering sociopath is shit scared he will be assassinated.

 

[p.taker]

 

[Vester]

The premise of your response is that they fear the U.S alone due to their military might - An EU army would have :-

1. Nuclear deterrents
2. A budget that will easily surpass Russia's defence spending based upon Germany's commitment to spend up to 100Bn alone not including the other 26 member states
3. 2016 consensus has the EU active army personnel alone at 1.4 million
4. Superior military hardware

Not sure why you think Putin would be so dismissive of this on his doorstep just because the U.S. would not be officially involved, as I am fairly certain NATO bases, logistics and planning would be completely interchangeable with the EU equivalent.

Georgia applied for emergency EU membership 2 days ago, Ukraine president is trying to get fast tracked into the EU as we speak and you think that's just because they want to access the EU's free market - there is a link right there for you on why these applications are trying to be fast tracked at this very moment.

From my point of view, they dont see EU as an existential threat for them today. If EU countries would up their defense budgets by a large percentage that could certainly change in the future, but today Natos military strength is completely dependent on USA. Nato is basically just an alliance of nations USA protect today. That could of course change in the future, the power balance of the world shift over time. But for Nato to have the same military strength without USA as with USA, most members would basically have to up their defense budget with 500-1000%. As of today Russia knows that no EU country would be foolish enough to attack them, unless they have USA backing them up. They would perhaps think EU might have enough military strength to defend themselves from an attack from them, or at least enough to make it not worth while. But not the strength needed to attack them, making them a existential threat to Russia. USA (or perhaps China) are the only ones who have that strength.

Again just my opinion. What do you agree and disagree with from what I said?

 

[mosssideblue]

Christ Putin is having a right ramble on tv, he lives in a different world. Frightening stuff if this is the crap he is trying to make the Russian public believe.

Had to turn it off as I was getting really wound up listening to him. He really has bits missing between the ears

 

[bobmcfc]

So he's just claimed there's thousands of Indian and Chinese hostages in Ukraine.

...China and India are going to come out and say that's not true...why would he chose the 2 world powers who are remaining neutral?

You can't reason with fantasy like that. He's a loon and wants going in the bin

 

[Grassland Blue]

EU GDP? 15.59 trillion USD
US GDP? 22 trillion - roughly

GDP of Russia? $1.7 trillion

(Incidentally, Italy is $2.1 trillion)

Since GDP is a pretty good proxy for spending power, i.e. how much money China can get off us, why on EARTH would they want to side with Russia? Surely China hold the key to this crisis. I am convinced if we get China fully on board, bending Putin's ear directly, this nightmare can end.

The GDP of China is about $15 trillion I think.

 

[Chippy_boy]

So he's just claimed there's thousands of Indian and Chinese hostages in Ukraine.

...China and India are going to come out and say that's not true...why would he chose the 2 world powers who are remaining neutral?

Presumably because those two abstained in the UN vote and he thinks there's at least best chance of those 2 saying nothing and not calling him out on it?

 

[domalino]

Nato are of course very concerned about Russia invasion of Ukraine, thats pretty obvious, not sure what your point was.

You say Nato is no threat to Russia, I agree. Thats why I said I think Putin is deranged/paranoid to think so. Russia strongly disagree, as their invasion to Ukraine shows. They think Nato is a huge threat to Russia. They couldnt have made that more clear, they want the US lead war machine (that how they view Nato, not me) to keep its distance. We might disagree and say its not a threat, Nato is just a defense alliance. That doesnt change the fact that Russia thinks it is, and their actions are a result of that.

I understand what you're saying that NATO isn't a threat to Russia, but Russia thinks it is.

However I don't think that's true - after all, Putin is not justifying his invasion with NATO back home, he's come up with this entire fictional genocide on ethnic Russians and how the country needs to be liberated from Neo-Nazis.

That kind of lie is incredibly difficult to pull off. He would have invested billions in propaganda and misinformation and social media trolls, and enforcing restrictions on the press.

If the Russian public would have accepted NATO threatening Russia as an excuse, he'd have just used that.