Russian invasion of Ukraine

Bazzmand Show said:
Do they even get told what they are shelling? Surely they are just given coordinates.
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Maybe not all but surely some must know what’s going on and what they’re actually targeting. I refuse to believe they’re all oblivious. I’m trying to ask people I know who have been in combat but wonder if anyone else on here who has can confirm their thoughts? We already know death squads are operating in the Ukraine and are firing at fleeing civilians, as the Sky crew experienced.
 
mosssideblue said:
Three approaches I would consider.
1. NATO call Putin's bluff and support Ukraine by putting boots on the ground and creating a no fly zone for Russian aircraft. Only doing this after telling Putin in no uncertain terms that if he is thinking about going nuclear, Russia would suffer far worse than the rest of the world.

2. If not willing to create a no fly zone, immediately give Ukraine the resources to do that themselves

3. Create a coalition outside of NATO framework to give Ukraine the no fly zone.

Sure, there is a risk that Putin might want to go nuclear, but I would think he would be a lonely figure wanting that, and without full support from his military command, it won't happen.

What cannot continue is this constant war criminality and geneside with others simply watching on because of fear of the bully
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The first option leads to WW3.
Others might if Russia struggles to defeat Ukraine.
The only realistic option is to give Ukraine top of the range anti-aircraft defence capability and enough NLAWs, Stingers and Artillery to make Russian offensives incredibly costly.
 
Octavian said:
Maybe not all but surely some must know what’s going on and what they’re actually targeting. I refuse to believe they’re all oblivious. I’m trying to ask people I know who have been in combat but wonder if anyone else on here who has can confirm their thoughts? We already know death squads are operating in the Ukraine and are firing at fleeing civilians, as the Sky crew experienced.
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Valid point Octavian. Never has the fog of war been so dense. Admittedly, it largely concerns difficulties associated with assessing the successes or otherwise of the Russians' ambitions. However, the piece below in this morning's Guardian perhaps has broader relevance.
www.theguardian.com

Clear picture of war in Ukraine clouded by large areas of unknowns

Analysis: lack of reliable information has made it hard to assess the Russian military’s successes and failures
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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metalblue said:
Unfortunately I fear that as this progresses it will become more and more brutal- and increasingly hard for the west to not get involved.
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This is essentially what Zelenskyy has been saying.

The less progress he makes, the worse things get back home, Putin is just going to make things worse. Mass incendiary bombing next, then chemical weapons, then a small nuke.

When will the West decide enough is enough? How many lives would be spared if we decided to act now instead of later?

There's no easy answer but the very least we can do is ramp up what we're giving them - those 70 migs need to go ASAP.
 
journolud said:
He’s a fucking genius, no-one else could have devised a plan like that in such detail
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Let's be honest without the NLAWs, Javelins and Stingers - Ukraine would now be fully under Russian occupation. It still may be unless NATO members and other democracies do more.
Who was prepared to give Ukraine that capability? Only the UK and US is the answer.
So compared with Macron and Schultz, he is a fucking genius.
Now the rest of Europe has finally come to the party, perhaps they can give Ukraine the ex Soviet artillery they need.
 
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domalino said:
This is essentially what Zelenskyy has been saying.

The less progress he makes, the worse things get back home, Putin is just going to make things worse. Mass incendiary bombing next, then chemical weapons, then a small nuke.

When will the West decide enough is enough? How many lives would be spared if we decided to act now instead of later?

There's no easy answer but the very least we can do is ramp up what we're giving them - those 70 migs need to go ASAP.
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The tactics the Russians are using now are obvious imo.

They are going to continue shelling and moving civilians out and eventually the Ukranians will have to surrender/come to terms with some sort of agreement with Putin.

It's ugly, but it's just the reality now. It's all well and good defending your home land, but do we want Ukraine turning into a Libya of constant fighting and it's basically a total shithole?

The longer this goes on it isn't good for Putin, but in no way is this good for Ukraine either. Theres probably been too much blood shed now for a peaceful agreement, but it needs to be tabled.
 
BlueAnorak said:
The first option leads to WW3.
Others might if Russia struggles to defeat Ukraine.
The only realistic option is to give Ukraine top of the range anti-aircraft defence capability and enough NLAWs, Stingers and Artillery to make Russian offensives incredibly costly.
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We don't know for sure it would lead to WW3 but it provides weaker countries an excuse to not to challenge Putin
 
domalino said:
This is essentially what Zelenskyy has been saying.

The less progress he makes, the worse things get back home, Putin is just going to make things worse. Mass incendiary bombing next, then chemical weapons, then a small nuke.

When will the West decide enough is enough? How many lives would be spared if we decided to act now instead of later?

There's no easy answer but the very least we can do is ramp up what we're giving them - those 70 migs need to go ASAP.
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mosssideblue said:
We don't know for sure it would lead to WW3 but it provides weaker countries an excuse to not to challenge Putin
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Inaction could lead to invasions elsewhere around the globe. If other countries see the West doing very little then what's stopping nations with dictatorships across the globe from invading neighbouring countries? Sets a dangerous precedent by sitting back and watching the Ukraine conflict unfold.

Albeit it, it is a complex situation with Ukraine not being a Nato member but they're in Europe and more needs to be done to support Ukraine.
 
Someone please tell me I misheard the news on Radio two just now that the roads provided by the Russians for the ceasefire evacuation either lead to Russia or Belarus, and that they are also mined
 
Bazzmand Show said:
The tactics the Russians are using now are obvious imo.

They are going to continue shelling and moving civilians out and eventually the Ukranians will have to surrender/come to terms with some sort of agreement with Putin.

It's ugly, but it's just the reality now. It's all well and good defending your home land, but do we want Ukraine turning into a Libya of constant fighting and it's basically a total shithole?

The longer this goes on it isn't good for Putin, but in no way is this good for Ukraine either. Theres probably been too much blood shed now for a peaceful agreement, but it needs to be tabled.
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Surprise surprise the guy who thought the Ukrainians should surrender day 1 because it'd be over in 2 days anyway still thinks they should surrender.

The longer this goes on it isn't good for Putin, but in no way is this good for Ukraine either.
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The people of Ukraine have decided fighting is better for Ukraine than being Russian again.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
The tactics the Russians are using now are obvious imo.

They are going to continue shelling and moving civilians out and eventually the Ukranians will have to surrender/come to terms with some sort of agreement with Putin.

It's ugly, but it's just the reality now. It's all well and good defending your home land, but do we want Ukraine turning into a Libya of constant fighting and it's basically a total shithole?

The longer this goes on it isn't good for Putin, but in no way is this good for Ukraine either. Theres probably been too much blood shed now for a peaceful agreement, but it needs to be tabled.
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You are Lord Halifax and I claim my £5
 
mosssideblue said:
World leaders are effectively saying that they are so frightened of Putin, they are happy to watch a minor country and its civilian population get slaughtered illegally.
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Yes pretty much and we can send all the well wishes we want, nobody wants nuclear conflict - even if that means some civilians die.
 
domalino said:
The people of Ukraine have decided fighting is better for Ukraine than being Russian again.
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Then they aren't going to have a country to fight for at some point and sometimes coming to the table is better than being totally destroyed.

I've said it before and I will say it again 'the dead cannot fight'.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
The tactics the Russians are using now are obvious imo.

They are going to continue shelling and moving civilians out and eventually the Ukranians will have to surrender/come to terms with some sort of agreement with Putin.

It's ugly, but it's just the reality now. It's all well and good defending your home land, but do we want Ukraine turning into a Libya of constant fighting and it's basically a total shithole?

The longer this goes on it isn't good for Putin, but in no way is this good for Ukraine either. Theres probably been too much blood shed now for a peaceful agreement, but it needs to be tabled.
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Sorry I pressed like by mistake.

I meant to say it’s as well that we didn’t follow this advice in WW2. Sometimes you have to fight against seemingly overwhelming odds for something you believe in.
 
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