North Stand Construction Discussion

[jrb]

I'd be very surprised if City looked at this from anything other than a financial perspective. I remember a few years ago seeing matchday income per fan of each of the PL clubs at the time. Chelsea topped it at around £1,600 per fan each season. Arsenal, Spurs, the rags and dippers were all at a similar level. It was measured against the same data from a decade earlier and rises had been between 3% and 90% iirc. We were sat below them having gone from about £350 to over £1,000 in that period at a 180% increase. That's a monumental change, particularly when you consider the historic prices blues would pay to attend games. Yes we're the best in the league and have been dominant but that's such a major change in cost it's not surprising many historic fans have stopped going. It used to be cheap to watch City and the football was shite so it would be about a beer and a sing song.

The club will see a huge gulf in income compared to our rivals. It could work out as a player a season by the time you run it through considering the higher attendances at Spurs, Arsenal and the swamp.

It would be lovely for them to market the NS as per the suggestions by 1894 and in line with what Didsbury Dave has said. That's the ideal method in my opinion. Create a buzz around it, talk of the Maine Road days. Entice the old singers back through attractive pricing - although they'd have to wait their turn. Make the stadium an environment where people are willing to pay more and come because it's bouncing - there is a market there particularly with younger audiences. Seats in the SS from movers can be available for those who are struggling with the costs in the CB and ES. Then you sell those seats to day trippers who will happily pay a fortune to see us. Overall though that's going to fail every single test on the financial system they'll be looking at this expansion through. It will be the only one that meets the "fan satisfaction" criteria, but even then that will not be universal. So why would they do it? Cost of living crisis? Giving back to the loyal fans of old? I'm not sure they give a shit about atmosphere or fan satisfaction too much when there is money to be made. If they lose someone who has been going for 30+ years and replace them with someone who has more cash and spends it, happy days!

A very cynical view this, and I like to believe the club do care about the fans. As JRB has said, let's hope they're reading this thread and that they'll listen to feedback once proposals are shared.

From what others have posted and what I've bee told in general, the club do want to improve the atmosphere in the ground. How they go about that by redesigning and expanding the North stand will be fascinating to see.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

From what others have posted and what I've bee told in general, the club do want to improve the atmosphere in the ground. How they go about that by redesigning and expanding the North stand will be fascinating to see.

I think the fact that they are making it two and not three tiers means they are serious about making this about atmosphere.

I'm sorry to repeat myself but there are sound commercial reasons for improving the atmosphere, and there are sound football reasons too. Young fans want to be part of a vocal supporter base with an identity. I live outside Manchester now and am a youth football coach. City are picking up young fans here but not as many as Liverpool. And there's continual pisstaking from the Liverpool "fans" about The Emptihad and our fans not being passionate. The Wembley semi last year didn't help with this. That's our club's image now and it's sad but kids want noise, they are shallow. It can make the difference. And if you get them young you've got them for life.

With regards to corporates, a lot are neutrals. They want to see good football but they want a good atmosphere in the stadium too. I talked to a school friend after the Evertone game who supprots Burnley and he'd been in corporate. Literally the first thing he said when I mentioned the game was "It's too quiet in the stadium".

Also, Pep has made comments about atmosphere for a reason. It lifts the team. He was cockahoop when we won with ten men before Chritmas,s aying things like "This is why we are here" and I'm sure part of that was that the ground was a caldron. Last week against Everton he was making frustrated gestures to the crowd and then curbing them.

I know people are cynical and I know that the club is about money, but a better atmosphere will generate more money in teh long term.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I think your points mostly aren’t really valid (apart from prices) and some are quite bizarre.

You seem to think we should never have expanded at all, which is just crazy considering we’re now even selling out early round league cup games. In the entire history of the club, demand for tickets has never been as high as it is now.

I also disagree that the South Stand expansion made the atmosphere worse. The atmosphere was at it’s best around 2012 simply because success was ‘new’. Expectations change as we get better and therefore fans are just quieter for lesser games because people sit back and expect the team to put on a show. It’s nothing to do with having an expanded South Stand. Some of the best ever atmosphere’s at this stadium have come since the the expansion including the best ever in the league vs Liverpool in 2019.

I also think you’re wrongly wrapped up about empty seats. League games in the main are restricted to ticket exchange seats and as mentioned before even early round league cup games are now selling out. There will always be people who don’t turn up to games - it’s the same at many clubs.

Tbh, I think your real issue is that you’re worried you might have to move, so you’re thinking of any reason you can to try and justify not progressing as a club.

The empty seats / ticket exchange singles argument can also be interpreted as a need to expand the ground so we have more sellable groups of 2/3/4 seats together.

Haaland has shifted the goal posts with demand for tickets at its highest ever, like you said.

 

[Corky]

The one thing we don't want is artificially cheaper tickets and fans, like the ones on here who buy Value Gold, then decide to sell on their ticket at full price for the stand when we go behind in the league. Everyone's else price will go up to subsidise these abusers.

Also remember, the cheaper the tickets the less money the club make, and the less motivated the fans are to attend. This is why the current SS3 is never heard.

 

[youngbob]

I think your points mostly aren’t really valid (apart from prices) and some are quite bizarre.

You seem to think we should never have expanded at all, which is just crazy considering we’re now even selling out early round league cup games. In the entire history of the club, demand for tickets has never been as high as it is now.

I also disagree that the South Stand expansion made the atmosphere worse. The atmosphere was at it’s best around 2012 simply because success was ‘new’. Expectations change as we get better and therefore fans are just quieter for lesser games because people sit back and expect the team to put on a show. It’s nothing to do with having an expanded South Stand. Some of the best ever atmosphere’s at this stadium have come since the the expansion including the best ever in the league vs Liverpool in 2019.

I also think you’re wrongly wrapped up about empty seats. League games in the main are restricted to ticket exchange seats and as mentioned before even early round league cup games are now selling out. There will always be people who don’t turn up to games - it’s the same at many clubs.

Tbh, I think your real issue is that you’re worried you might have to move, so you’re thinking of any reason you can to try and justify not progressing as a club.

First off, I'll just come right out and say I'm not bothered about where I sit at the Etihad. As it happens, my mum and me have had the same seats in the Family Stand for 20 years and the club have been nice enough to say we can keep them as long as we carry on renewing. I spent the back end of the 18/19 season too ill to come and I missed the majority of the 19/20 season because I was in and out of hospital with various things. These days, just being in the ground is enough for me. On top of that, I've sat all around the Etihad over the years for odd games - South Stand third tier (Kompany testimonial), Colin Bell second tier (Everton home game after COVID), East Stand (women's derby last month), North Stand behind the goal (Europa League games in 2012), etc. - and the experience isn't any different. It's a world class stadium with great facilities everywhere, there's loads of legroom and no restricted views, If we were forced to move, my mum and me could probably afford the rise in prices because we're lucky enough to have good jobs in fields we both love. There's no risk of us being made to shift it out of the Family Stand any time soon but if it happens then we'd oblige without fuss.

The rest I've already gone into depth about here so instead of repeating myself I'll just link back to it:

North Stand Construction Discussion

Why isn’t it easy to give your ticket to someone? If they havent a supporter number. If someone just fancies going

forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

 

[HelloCity]

First off, I'll just come right out and say I'm not bothered about where I sit at the Etihad. As it happens, my mum and me have had the same seats in the Family Stand for 20 years and the club have been nice enough to say we can keep them as long as we carry on renewing. I spent the back end of the 18/19 season too ill to come and I missed the majority of the 19/20 season because I was in and out of hospital with various things. These days, just being in the ground is enough for me. On top of that, I've sat all around the Etihad over the years for odd games - South Stand third tier (Kompany testimonial), Colin Bell second tier (Everton home game after COVID), East Stand (women's derby last month), North Stand behind the goal (Europa League games in 2012), etc. - and the experience isn't any different. It's a world class stadium with great facilities everywhere, there's loads of legroom and no restricted views, If we were forced to move, my mum and me could probably afford the rise in prices because we're lucky enough to have good jobs in fields we both love. There's no risk of us being made to shift it out of the Family Stand any time soon but if it happens then we'd oblige without fuss.

The rest I've already gone into depth about here so instead of repeating myself I'll just link back to it:

North Stand Construction Discussion

Why isn’t it easy to give your ticket to someone? If they havent a supporter number. If someone just fancies going

forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

Yeah, that’s what I think it’s mostly not valid, apart from the price stuff.

 

[youngbob]

Yeah, that’s what I think it’s mostly not valid, apart from the price stuff.

Fair enough. But you're misguided if you think it's because I don't want to move from my seat. I've had the same seat for longer than I should have and way longer than I expected to. I'm happy to sit anywhere. Do just think the expansion (along with, as you said, rising expectations and rising prices) accelerated a process that was already under way.

 

[supercity88]

The one thing we don't want is artificially cheaper tickets and fans, like the ones on here who buy Value Gold, then decide to sell on their ticket at full price for the stand when we go behind in the league. Everyone's else price will go up to subsidise these abusers.

Also remember, the cheaper the tickets the less money the club make, and the less motivated the fans are to attend. This is why the current SS3 is never heard.

You need a system where those that go into that area are there with the purpose of singing and if they don't join in or consistently don't turn up, they don't have the option to return. If it's marketed as per Dave has suggested, you'd expect a queue of people wanting to get in there, especially if it does work successfully. It will become the place to be in the stadium. You'd have to offer it to those with seasoncards already initially of course, for fairness. Then release it to those on the waiting list etc. But they could easily look to target an age group, or certain fans to try and build for the future and capture fans who will attend for years to come. Other seats will then be available throughout the ground at mixed pricing and they could look to make the money back from any discounts by charging more for those (to new fans, not existing who relocate).

You want your matchday tickets for the day trippers/tourists to be in the CB/ESL3 as well as hospitality of course. And you can rinse them because they'll pay as it's only a handful of times they'll attend. If the NS works successfully, the buzz of it will get people wanting to come. That can also happen through videos of the singing section, as you see from other clubs. That creates a hype on social media - and there are lots of younger fans who will want to come through those sources. Huge banners/displays, 10,000 in a single tier doing the poznan etc - all creates a hype that makes people want to turn up hopefully. And you'd no doubt see the SS step up and try and create some back and forth.

 

[Jesus H Gabz]

I'd be very surprised if City looked at this from anything other than a financial perspective. I remember a few years ago seeing matchday income per fan of each of the PL clubs at the time. Chelsea topped it at around £1,600 per fan each season. Arsenal, Spurs, the rags and dippers were all at a similar level. It was measured against the same data from a decade earlier and rises had been between 3% and 90% iirc. We were sat below them having gone from about £350 to over £1,000 in that period at a 180% increase. That's a monumental change, particularly when you consider the historic prices blues would pay to attend games. Yes we're the best in the league and have been dominant but that's such a major change in cost it's not surprising many historic fans have stopped going. It used to be cheap to watch City and the football was shite so it would be about a beer and a sing song.

The club will see a huge gulf in income compared to our rivals. It could work out as a player a season by the time you run it through considering the higher attendances at Spurs, Arsenal and the swamp.

It would be lovely for them to market the NS as per the suggestions by 1894 and in line with what Didsbury Dave has said. That's the ideal method in my opinion. Create a buzz around it, talk of the Maine Road days. Entice the old singers back through attractive pricing - although they'd have to wait their turn. Make the stadium an environment where people are willing to pay more and come because it's bouncing - there is a market there particularly with younger audiences. Seats in the SS from movers can be available for those who are struggling with the costs in the CB and ES. Then you sell those seats to day trippers who will happily pay a fortune to see us. Overall though that's going to fail every single test on the financial system they'll be looking at this expansion through. It will be the only one that meets the "fan satisfaction" criteria, but even then that will not be universal. So why would they do it? Cost of living crisis? Giving back to the loyal fans of old? I'm not sure they give a shit about atmosphere or fan satisfaction too much when there is money to be made. If they lose someone who has been going for 30+ years and replace them with someone who has more cash and spends it, happy days!

A very cynical view this, and I like to believe the club do care about the fans. As JRB has said, let's hope they're reading this thread and that they'll listen to feedback once proposals are shared.

No reason why the club couldn’t offer lapsed season ticket holders a seat in an increased capacity Etihad, I’m sure they’d have most on file. Say if they met certain criteria, maybe 2-5 seasons as a STH, and offer reasonably priced tickets etc, it would go a long way to repairing any relationships that had broken down in the past between club & supporters, and help bridge the financials

 

[Jesus H Gabz]

Don't get this so called atmosphere problem, like Mark Hughes said with the Aguero moment, he'd never heard a noise as loud, in any stadium, anywhere, ever.
For me, the Rodri goal, the last game of the season. I've never, ever, heard a noise like it, the stadium resonated, it rocked.

We are very good at responding to the football on the pitch, when we are in the gutter & need a lift, and in big games, but the general consensus is we are lacking in the kind of support you see at away games, where we just have a few beers, turn up, support the lads for ninety win lose draw. This is probably only solvable with some kind of manufacturing & manipulating of the support, to some that is sacrilege but we can either continue on the same path or look for change, I don’t think anyone is talking about a bloke in his fifties dressed in black with a megaphone ordering everyone to sing off their sheet given out before the game, but it is gonna take some thought, organisation, collusion, sacrifice and probably some ridicule (from some quarters) we are in a very unique situation where we can rip it up (not entirely) and start again, a mini reset, with owners prepared to listen and facilitate change

 

[trevorriley]

I think on this thread we are looking into things a little bit to deep.

In the meeting 4 of us had with the club 2 weeks ago, the club is 100% behind a better atmosphere. The benefits of a game that is buzzing are endless. We are working together.

One of the irritating comments on here is the mention of tourists and day trippers in the lower SS safestand. This is mainly down to fans not going to the games and selling off their ticket and other seats being spare because the lower SS isnt sold out with season cards. If we took out all the day trippers you would end up with many empty seats, that is the last thing we & the club want.

Before the season cards come available for the new north stand, we will be meeting up with the club to ask for the number of blocks we want reserving in the lower section and the upper section for singers that want to move. If all that we ask for is one block for lower stand and one block for upper then it will fail. Realistically we need 3 blocks in each to make the atmosphere good. Fans are split in their preference between lower tier and upper, it is no good telling fans they all have to go upper tier under the roof, they will decide. Personally i am going lower as it will be easier for displays and i dont want to view the game up with the gods.

If we get 3 blocks filled with atmosphere minded fans in each tier we are looking at 4,000 - 5,000 fans. This will get the stadium going. It is down to fans over the next 18 months to decide what they want and to push aside sitting near away fans or preferred seat and so on with reasons not to move.

Move in to the new north stand, make use of what we have not what we could have, this is the last chance.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You need a system where those that go into that area are there with the purpose of singing and if they don't join in or consistently don't turn up, they don't have the option to return. If it's marketed as per Dave has suggested, you'd expect a queue of people wanting to get in there, especially if it does work successfully. It will become the place to be in the stadium. You'd have to offer it to those with seasoncards already initially of course, for fairness. Then release it to those on the waiting list etc. But they could easily look to target an age group, or certain fans to try and build for the future and capture fans who will attend for years to come. Other seats will then be available throughout the ground at mixed pricing and they could look to make the money back from any discounts by charging more for those (to new fans, not existing who relocate).

You want your matchday tickets for the day trippers/tourists to be in the CB/ESL3 as well as hospitality of course. And you can rinse them because they'll pay as it's only a handful of times they'll attend. If the NS works successfully, the buzz of it will get people wanting to come. That can also happen through videos of the singing section, as you see from other clubs. That creates a hype on social media - and there are lots of younger fans who will want to come through those sources. Huge banners/displays, 10,000 in a single tier doing the poznan etc - all creates a hype that makes people want to turn up hopefully. And you'd no doubt see the SS step up and try and create some back and forth.

That's the balance that can be acheived here. We are getting loads of day trippers now. Chelsea in the cup sold out weeks in advance and half the people around me in BC3 weren't regulars. Whislt it's never goign to be perfect we can definitely make money from corportates and day trippers whilst keeping it cheaper for those who can't afford it.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Don't get this so called atmosphere problem, like Mark Hughes said with the Aguero moment, he'd never heard a noise as loud, in any stadium, anywhere, ever.
For me, the Rodri goal, the last game of the season. I've never, ever, heard a noise like it, the stadium resonated, it rocked.

I get what your saying, but I don’t think they are the best examples. A goal to win the league should create an amazing atmosphere. That’s the same for any club.

It’s the rest of the time where it’s not been great. Hopefully having a second tier home will improve it

 

[Brightwell Bros.]

I think on this thread we are looking into things a little bit to deep.

In the meeting 4 of us had with the club 2 weeks ago, the club is 100% behind a better atmosphere. The benefits of a game that is buzzing are endless. We are working together.

One of the irritating comments on here is the mention of tourists and day trippers in the lower SS safestand. This is mainly down to fans not going to the games and selling off their ticket and other seats being spare because the lower SS isnt sold out with season cards. If we took out all the day trippers you would end up with many empty seats, that is the last thing we & the club want.

Before the season cards come available for the new north stand, we will be meeting up with the club to ask for the number of blocks we want reserving in the lower section and the upper section for singers that want to move. If all that we ask for is one block for lower stand and one block for upper then it will fail. Realistically we need 3 blocks in each to make the atmosphere good. Fans are split in their preference between lower tier and upper, it is no good telling fans they all have to go upper tier under the roof, they will decide. Personally i am going lower as it will be easier for displays and i dont want to view the game up with the gods.

If we get 3 blocks filled with atmosphere minded fans in each tier we are looking at 4,000 - 5,000 fans. This will get the stadium going. It is down to fans over the next 18 months to decide what they want and to push aside sitting near away fans or preferred seat and so on with reasons not to move.

Move in to the new north stand, make use of what we have not what we could have, this is the last chance.

Sign me up! At it's core, I think you're right: put 6k fans together who want to make noise and they'll make noise.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Before the season cards come available for the new north stand, we will be meeting up with the club to ask for the number of blocks we want reserving in the lower section and the upper section for singers that want to move. If all that we ask for is one block for lower stand and one block for upper then it will fail. Realistically we need 3 blocks in each to make the atmosphere good. Fans are split in their preference between lower tier and upper, it is no good telling fans they all have to go upper tier under the roof, they will decide. Personally i am going lower as it will be easier for displays and i dont want to view the game up with the gods.

Correct me if I’m wrong mate, but are you talking about getting fans in the lower tier and upper tier of an expanded north stand?

How would that work practically? You’d have to force everyone out of the family stand. Surely it would make more sense to get everyone in an 8,000 standing second tier - similar to Ac Milan for example.

I would place singers/ a core group towards the front/ middle section of tier 2. It’s only posters on here who have suggested being at the back. The front/ middle isn’t in the gods either

I think in terms of displays as well, surely tier 2 would be much better. You can create bigger displays and be more creative in what you do. Tier 1 doesn’t really allow large scale tifos.

Fair enough if you disagree

 

[HelloCity]

Correct me if I’m wrong mate, but are you talking about getting fans in the lower tier and upper tier of an expanded north stand?

How would that work practically? You’d have to force everyone out of the family stand. Surely it would make more sense to get everyone in an 8,000 standing second tier - similar to Ac Milan for example.

I would place singers/ a core group towards the front/ middle section of tier 2. It’s only posters on here who have suggested being at the back

I think in terms of displays as well, surely tier 2 would be much better. You can create bigger displays and be more creative in what you do. Tier 1 doesn’t really allow large scale tifos.

Fair enough if you disagree

Sounds like the family stand will be moved and be smaller in scope. Apparently a big % of people in there now aren’t actually eligible.

 

[jrb]

Match ticket prices are only going one way and that's up.

City can't offer cheaper season tickets and match day tickets in the expanded North stand, there would be a stampede, and then increase season tickets and match day tickets elsewhere in the ground.

We've had continual season ticket and match day ticket price increases for the last 10 seasons, along with 1 season ticket price freeze.

People will just have to pay the going rate for a North stand season ticket. The club know they will have a captive audience, desperate to move to a new expanded North stand, singing section/s and home end.

 

[blueparrot]

Correct me if I’m wrong mate, but are you talking about getting fans in the lower tier and upper tier of an expanded north stand?

How would that work practically? You’d have to force everyone out of the family stand. Surely it would make more sense to get everyone in an 8,000 standing second tier - similar to Ac Milan for example.

I would place singers/ a core group towards the front/ middle section of tier 2. It’s only posters on here who have suggested being at the back

I think in terms of displays as well, surely tier 2 would be much better. You can create bigger displays and be more creative in what you do. Tier 1 doesn’t really allow large scale tifos.

Fair enough if you disagree

The impression I get is the family stand will be moving whatever happen.So getting fans into the lower tier and safe standing wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Match ticket prices are only going one way and that's up.

City can't offer cheaper season tickets and match day tickets in the expanded North stand, there would be a stampede, and then increase season tickets and match day tickets elsewhere in the ground.

We've had continual season ticket and match day ticket price increases for the last 10 seasons, along with 1 season ticket price freeze.

People will just have to pay the going rate for a North stand season ticket. The club know they will have a captive audience, desperate to move to a new expanded North stand, singing section/s and home end.

If they want to improve the atmosphere and get people moving into a home end. They’ll have to reduce the prices. That was one of the main reasons moving to ss3 was so popular. They don’t have to be 299 either.

They’ve already done it in the south stand and they could easily in the north aswell. If we want an extra 6,000 season ticket holders cheaper prices will also help with that

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

The impression I get is the family stand will be moving whatever happen.So getting fans into the lower tier and safe standing wouldn't be an issue.

It will be interesting to see where they will move all those fans to. Other areas of the ground are often more expensive, so it could be really unfair on those fans