Russian invasion of Ukraine

They will be loving this division and slow making in the Kremlin. Whilst this dragging of feet goes on it gives them the opportunity to regroup and try again when spring comes along in a couple of months time. The U.K. government for once has got something right sending Challengers, everyone else should be doing their bit.

The UK government has got an awful lot right on Ukraine, often unilaterally - we should be proud. We know these 14 C2 tanks are just the start, we will at a minimum replace any loses but I suspect we will signal to sending a couple more squadrons worth by the time the spring arrives.
 
A reasonable question. Let's deal in facts please. At the same time, these claims seem plausible... please poster provide evidence.
His relationship with Lebedev was suspicious to say the least.
One example:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ebedev-boris-johnson-private-russia-trip-plan
Unfortunately for Russia, Johnson did the right thing following the invasion, however it’s likely they thought they would have had less contribution to Ukraine from the U.K. due to the Lebedev relationship amongst other things.
 
Putin - if allowed to capture Ukraine - is absolutely going to push boundaries. Gas cutoffs to the West - Cyber attacks - amassing a military presence on Poland's borders - claiming that Nazi agents and USA biolabs are active in Poland and are threating Russia - interference in elections... and on and on. At some point, Russia will absolutely invade Poland.

Meanwhile, Putin is going to die in the next decade or so. Might his successor be as aggressive or even more so - almost certainly Putin has arranged for succession - so there's probably no let off in aggression once Putin dies.
Invade Poland, invade NATO. Ain't going to happen
 
His relationship with Lebedev was suspicious to say the least.
One example:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ebedev-boris-johnson-private-russia-trip-plan
Unfortunately for Russia, Johnson did the right thing following the invasion, however it’s likely they thought they would have had less contribution to Ukraine from the U.K. due to the Lebedev relationship amongst other things.

For balance The Standard was pretty quick to condemn Putin for the war and Johnson for his partygate and his lies.

I agree Putin was shocked at the western response but I don’t think he thought we’d not react due to tentative relationships but because we hadn’t really reacted to his previous actions. Much like Hitler really when he went into the Rhineland after we hadn’t reacted to his announcement of building up his armed forces (for defence). No one blinked. Inaction builds confidence in the other side to go further. Had we not drawn a line with Ukraine 100% he’d have gone further in some capacity.
 
Just give Ukraine tanks already, FFS - USA and Germany both. Stop Putin from killing Ukraine!

If that fucker Putin is going to retaliate using nukes, then he's going to do so and there's nothing we can do about it. If we cave on Ukraine, next up is Poland and on and on. We can't let this go.

Meanwhile, I really think we should up sanctions against Russia. Cut off oil/natural gas revenue. This may be a bridge too far - but by not cutting off this source of revenue, the West is simply funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Russian energy income is tanking. They are selling oil at cost, well below the 60 dollar sanctions level. The volume is crashing and they have announced a cutback in oil production. Sales to China and India are limited by small pipelines and a lack of LNG facilities. Surprisingly, secondary sanctions have successfully disrupted shipping and insurance arrangements. Maintenance of production facilities has been hit by technology sanctions.
Still some way to go, but they have already lost the equivalent of 10% of GDP.
The Russian economy is struggling big time.
 
Russian energy income is tanking. They are selling oil at cost, well below the 60 dollar sanctions level. The volume is crashing and they have announced a cutback in oil production. Sales to China and India are limited by small pipelines and a lack of LNG facilities. Surprisingly, secondary sanctions have successfully disrupted shipping and insurance arrangements. Maintenance of production facilities has been hit by technology sanctions.
Still some way to go, but they have already lost the equivalent of 10% of GDP.
The Russian economy is struggling big time.

Inject it in my veins.
 
Putin - if allowed to capture Ukraine - is absolutely going to push boundaries. Gas cutoffs to the West - Cyber attacks - amassing a military presence on Poland's borders - claiming that Nazi agents and USA biolabs are active in Poland and are threating Russia - interference in elections... and on and on. At some point, Russia will absolutely invade Poland.

Meanwhile, Putin is going to die in the next decade or so. Might his successor be as aggressive or even more so - almost certainly Putin has arranged for succession - so there's probably no let off in aggression once Putin dies.
The Cold War is over, so let’s have a hot one. The end of history? I think not, Mr. Fukuyama.
 
For balance The Standard was pretty quick to condemn Putin for the war and Johnson for his partygate and his lies.

I agree Putin was shocked at the western response but I don’t think he thought we’d not react due to tentative relationships but because we hadn’t really reacted to his previous actions. Much like Hitler really when he went into the Rhineland after we hadn’t reacted to his announcement of building up his armed forces (for defence). No one blinked. Inaction builds confidence in the other side to go further. Had we not drawn a line with Ukraine 100% he’d have gone further in some capacity.
Fair comment, however it seems likely that Putin was emboldened to some extent by having what he thought was a compromised PM in the UK. His miscalculation was that most people in the UK didn’t care about Johnson’s shenanigans so he had no hold on him.
 
Fair comment, however it seems likely that Putin was emboldened to some extent by having what he thought was a compromised PM in the UK. His miscalculation was that most people in the UK didn’t care about Johnson’s shenanigans so he had no hold on him.

His perfect time to invade would have been end of 2019, wonder if covid stopped him from doing it. Would have had Trump and Johnson.
 
Fair comment, however it seems likely that Putin was emboldened to some extent by having what he thought was a compromised PM in the UK. His miscalculation was that most people in the UK didn’t care about Johnson’s shenanigans so he had no hold on him.

Maybe. I think it was more likely he saw how the bots could manipulate public opinion as a way of winning the PR war on Ukraine, not just here in UK but the same playbook had been used elsewhere. Coupled with Russian money in UK/EU and EU reliance on Russian oil/gas he thought we’d not dare do much more than offer objections. Johnson, Macron, and the rest the cherry on the cake, the extra insurance. He was almost right.
 
His perfect time to invade would have been end of 2019, wonder if covid stopped him from doing it. Would have had Trump and Johnson.
Yes, it’s very clear that support from a Trump led US would have been far less than what actually happened so it may well be that Covid played its part in a delay. The other alternative was that Putin was banking on a Trump win and a subsequent withdrawal from NATO which would have weakened the western response immeasurably. Either way Putin miscalculated hugely.
 
Maybe. I think it was more likely he saw how the bots could manipulate public opinion as a way of winning the PR war on Ukraine, not just here in UK but the same playbook had been used elsewhere. Coupled with Russian money in UK/EU and EU reliance on Russian oil/gas he thought we’d not dare do much more than offer objections. Johnson, Macron, and the rest the cherry on the cake, the extra insurance. He was almost right.
I think it all adds to the mix. His successes in the propaganda wars and the relative inaction over Crimea, the Donbas, MH17 and Salisbury emboldened him and his influence over Trump and the GOP, and his perceived influence over Johnson were also significant.
 
All Russian Armour is Obsolete along side the challengers a lot depends on how quickly crews can be trained to get the best out of them. They decimated Russian made AFVs in the gulf.
The T90s are pretty good. Except for storing Ammo inside the turret of course.
 
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Invade Poland, invade NATO. Ain't going to happen

If Putin successfully invaded and annexed Ukraine his next target would not be a NATO member, it would be a country like Georgia.

Georgia is a close ally of NATO and has been promised future membership but isn’t protected.

Invading them would cause even more internal conflict in NATO.
 
You’d think the German arms industry would be putting a lot of pressure on Schulz, this fiasco is going to do them so much damage.

Korea, Israel and Turkey all have booming arms industries that provide alternative options for countries who want to…you know…use the things they spend billions on without Germany spending a year deciding if it’s ok or not.
 
Maybe. I think it was more likely he saw how the bots could manipulate public opinion as a way of winning the PR war on Ukraine, not just here in UK but the same playbook had been used elsewhere. Coupled with Russian money in UK/EU and EU reliance on Russian oil/gas he thought we’d not dare do much more than offer objections. Johnson, Macron, and the rest the cherry on the cake, the extra insurance. He was almost right.
I watched Rise of the Nazis over the Christmas break, which was filmed well before last February, and near the beginning of the first episode one of the historian talking heads said that, without fail, dictators eventually end up completely surrounded by acolytes and yes men, none of whom dare challenge the thoughts and ideals of their leader. And it is this that leads to their eventual downfall. Without fail.

It really struck a cord with me. Putin would not have had anyone telling him that he was taking a huge risk in invading Ukraine. Whilst the west had hitherto been far too effete and supine in dealing with Putin, the response from NATO nations to this invasion was actually foreseeable to anyone stepping back and applying logic.

Just because someone doesn’t retaliate when you hit them five times, doesn’t mean they won’t if you hit them again. Especially if the sixth time is harder than what preceded it.

He has overplayed his hand and completely fucking blown it. His country’s standing has been reduced to an overwhelming extent and its people will be ostracised for decades as a consequence.
 
You are aware that the US has sent more military aid than any other country...... by a long way
Not in terms of GDP%. UK deliveries are virtually identical with the US on a GDP% basis. Estonia is and Latvia are top of the pile, then Poland then the US and UK.
 
Yes probably a poor choice of wording, think he was referring more to the supply of Abrams which are at least the equal of the Challenger 2s and much more plentiful, these MBTs could well eject the Russians from Ukraine. Or at the very least put the shits right up the Russian military.
Totally impractical for Ukrainian Logistics and Maintenance. It has a Gas Turbine jet engine power plant and burns 5 US gallons to move 1 mile.
 

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