How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

I've just come back from Copenhagen with the bespoke cycling club (only four members and it's full, so fuck off yer can't join!) and whilst in the hotel playing a vicious game of UNO, and imbibing another coffer and stuffin' a packet of crisps I noticed that the crisps were English - all the way from Devon. So at least the Danes are two-fingerin' Brussels when it comes to English crisps.

 

[Rascal]

So it was wrong to vote leave in 2016?

No, it was wrong to vote the tories back into power in 2019

 

[Innsbruckblue]

The Trade confederation got too big for their boots and started manufacturing a droid army and that's why I voted leave.

Are you being serious?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Are you being serious?

Have you not seen them? They are up and down our street daily -

 

[Innsbruckblue]

Have you not seen them? They are up and down our street daily -

View attachment 68429

Looks like an EU invasion

 

[bluethrunthru]

 

[BrianW]

The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is that most hard line Remainers just do not get it. For many leavers it is just a matter of principle and it would take a lot more than 4% GDP to change those principles.
Now you, if in say 5 years time it turns out that leaving really was a great idea economically would you regret your Remain vote?

If in 5 years' time, an eccentric millionairess offers to marry me, will I regret being married to my wife? It is actually a far more likely scenario than a Brexit Britain booming economically above the level we would have done in the EU. And if such a boom is achieved, it will be on the back of slashing rules and standards and in particular both protection for workers and social benefits. There are numerous reasons this is unlikely, though it is the wet dream of that evil harridan Truss and her ilk.

That a Tory should vote for this is bad enough. That anyone who considers themself 'Left' should do so is unconscionable.

To answer the unasked question, if membership of the EU gave us no economic benefits at all (which it would!) I would still want to be in a union with our European brothers and sisters and be a European Citizen. And, what's more, if the price of that was to abolish the UK government entirely and raze Westminster to the ground (or turn it into a waxworks exhibition) I would still want it. Because the corrupt scum in Westminster is the cause of 99% of our problems.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

It is quite telling that economically both sides of the debate argued for the same thing, the continuation of neo liberalism.

The question posed by the ballot was a simple “In or Out”. But, as with most instances within democracy, this could not be answered so straightforwardly. What the ballot really asked is this: would we prefer to be in a capitalist Britain inside the capitalist EU; or a capitalist Britain outside the capitalist EU?

When Britain voted to remain a member of the European Economic Community in 1975, the trade union movement and Labour Left campaigned against membership. They argued, correctly, that the EEC was a “bosses club” that would benefit European big business and banking interests at the expense of European workers. This appeared very plainly to the British Left, as the EEC was essentially a free-trade area established to integrate the European economy into a single bloc that could rival the United States and the Soviet Union. In the game of inter-imperialist competition, the workers always lose. I do not think anyone can argue that the workers lost since joining the EU, yes there were some sops but inequality has rose exponentially. There is no doubt in my mind that since the beginning of the capitalist crisis in 2008 the institutions at the heart of the EU – the European Commission and the European Central Bank – have shown their true colours by imposing capitalist austerity across Europe. Look at how they destroyed Greece for instance. Its a capitalist club.

Above all else, we need a socialist transformation of society by the working class. The EU is just as much of a corrupt, big-business-run institution as our very own government of the rich. Socialism will not come from internal reforms. Neither will it be any closer with Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Breaking with the EU was not the goal , its the break with capitalism. The red wall seats saw this, they were not the racist xenophobes the liberal remain camp extolled them to be, they just wanted fairness. I will say though that the far right did indeed play on peoples fears about immigration and Farage's disgusting poster may have been pivotal in gaining the small percentage of racist halfwits.

Remain fucked up because of the arrogant notion that capitalism knows best, they never challenged the status quo.

All that might well be true, but they then voted for Johnson and his cronies to ‘get rid of the elites’. They wanted socialism outside the EU, they had Corbin on the election paper and they voted for the lying old Etonian. The media killed any chance and, in a nutshell mate, that’s why socialism will never have a proper chance in this country.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

No, it was wrong to vote the tories back into power in 2019

In 2016 there was no need to have an election until 2020. Surely it was logical to assume the tories would be in power for the negotiation and implementation of the deal?

 

[bluethrunthru]

If in 5 years' time, an eccentric millionairess offers to marry me, will I regret being married to my wife? It is actually a far more likely scenario than a Brexit Britain booming economically above the level we would have done in the EU. And if such a boom is achieved, it will be on the back of slashing rules and standards and in particular both protection for workers and social benefits. There are numerous reasons this is unlikely, though it is the wet dream of that evil harridan Truss and her ilk.

That a Tory should vote for this is bad enough. That anyone who considers themself 'Left' should do so is unconscionable.

To answer the unasked question, if membership of the EU gave us no economic benefits at all (which it would!) I would still want to be in a union with our European brothers and sisters and be a European Citizen. And, what's more, if the price of that was to abolish the UK government entirely and raze Westminster to the ground (or turn it into a waxworks exhibition) I would still want it. Because the corrupt scum in Westminster is the cause of 99% of our problems.

The simple fact is that trading blocs work. They bring wealth and prosperity to members by driving down trade barriers which is why just about every country in the world is a member of at least one - the dangers of imposing trade barriers upon ourselves were outed at the time - they were just Project Fear said the Leavers - now all Leave wants to do is ignore or deny the damage that Brexit is doing to the UK economy - if they can find out that one cobblers shop in Northampton can source shoe laces more cheaply from Vietnam than they could from say France pre-Brexit thats front page news for the Mail ( no mention of laces snapping due to poorer quality ) meanwhile the collapse of British Volt and Nissan UK down the road saying " you know what we don't think post Brexit Britain is a place to build and export cars from" is ignored or brushed under the carpet - honestly long after I am gone historians will look back on this period and wonder what the fuck was going on

 

[BrianW]

Politicians can be unutterably stupid, and so can voters. Never more so when they work on the basis of emotion.

A certain country not many hundred miles away went down that road in the 1930s. Regarding themselves as 'victims'. Finding various groups to blame. Electing politicians with big gobs who rejected reason and law. Waving flags about and making out they were something special. (I'm not talking about Liverpool, either.) It did not end well.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Politicians can be unutterably stupid, and so can voters. Never more so when they work on the basis of emotion.

A certain country not many hundred miles away went down that road in the 1930s. Regarding themselves as 'victims'. Finding various groups to blame. Electing politicians with big gobs who rejected reason and law. Waving flags about and making out they were something special. (I'm not talking about Liverpool, either.) It did not end well.

I watched Jojo Rabbit Sunday night too...............

 

[bluethrunthru]

You can churn out as many as you like but if you can't sell them at a profit .......... take note Sunderland as you are the home of 0.1 % of residents born outside the UK - immigration was never your enemy

Nissan warns costs must fall to make new electric cars in UK

A senior boss at the car company says the UK faces challenges to be competitive with other countries.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Palerider]

If in 5 years' time, an eccentric millionairess offers to marry me, will I regret being married to my wife? It is actually a far more likely scenario than a Brexit Britain booming economically above the level we would have done in the EU. And if such a boom is achieved, it will be on the back of slashing rules and standards and in particular both protection for workers and social benefits. There are numerous reasons this is unlikely, though it is the wet dream of that evil harridan Truss and her ilk.

That a Tory should vote for this is bad enough. That anyone who considers themself 'Left' should do so is unconscionable.

To answer the unasked question, if membership of the EU gave us no economic benefits at all (which it would!) I would still want to be in a union with our European brothers and sisters and be a European Citizen. And, what's more, if the price of that was to abolish the UK government entirely and raze Westminster to the ground (or turn it into a waxworks exhibition) I would still want it. Because the corrupt scum in Westminster is the cause of 99% of our problems.

The most left wing member of my family, close to being a communist, is my cherished elderly aunt. She calls the EU 'the Tory party abroad'. Is she wrong? Thatcher loved the EU didn't she? Ask yourself why, let me help, the answer is not 'because it's left wing'.
And thanks for answering my question. In truth I don't care whether you are more concerned about the economic benefits of a political party or their (alleged) higher level social aims. I just wanted to take you guys out of your comfort zone. I believe every one is equal and can vote how they like whether I like it or not.

 

[BrianW]

The most left wing member of my family, close to being a communist, is my cherished elderly aunt. She calls the EU 'the Tory party abroad'. Is she wrong? Thatcher loved the EU didn't she? Ask yourself why, let me help, the answer is not 'because it's left wing'.
And thanks for answering my question. In truth I don't care whether you are more concerned about the economic benefits of a political party or their (alleged) higher level social aims. I just wanted to take you guys out of your comfort zone. I believe every one is equal and can vote how they like whether I like it or not.

The reality is this country is not run by left-wingers of the sort you have in mind, and there is a very good chance it never will be. (The class struggle is essentially lost. The industrialised working class are a minority, and even fewer are in unions.) If the dinosaur left did somehow achieve power, their policies would probably end up with us being like, at least economically, the old East Germany.

The reality this country is in far greater danger of being completely controlled by libertarian right-wing nutcases of the most extreme variety, who think that the US Democrats are socialists. These people want to take away all your rights and protections and for everything to be dictated by the market. That includes healthcare, BTW.

The EU was a bulwark against this insanity, and that was one of many reasons I was pro-Remain and am now 101% Rejoin. It is not that the EU is perfect, it's just that the alternatives are not just worse, but far worse. The EU guarantees certain basic standards, and these can be built upon. Take that away and you are (potentially) at the mercy of wolves who don't believe in any sort of collective, except at the level of bourgeois 'justice', police and military.

It is fortunate for us that we are more likely in the immediate future to fall into the hands of Uncle Kier, who is roughly at the place of old-style Tories on the political spectrum. He is not a nutter; on the other hand, nor is he a socialist. I expect a fairly bland performance from him. Maybe fewer disasters, but no jam tomorrow or even next week. But the dangerous nutters will not go away. Their next move is to seize control of the Tory Party in the aftermath of what is an almost certain GE defeat. Be under no illusion, the 'Labour' government will not last forever. Unless we are very lucky, the wolves will be back one day, and we shall have no protection against them.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Marlo]

It is quite telling that economically both sides of the debate argued for the same thing, the continuation of neo liberalism.

The question posed by the ballot was a simple “In or Out”. But, as with most instances within democracy, this could not be answered so straightforwardly. What the ballot really asked is this: would we prefer to be in a capitalist Britain inside the capitalist EU; or a capitalist Britain outside the capitalist EU?

When Britain voted to remain a member of the European Economic Community in 1975, the trade union movement and Labour Left campaigned against membership. They argued, correctly, that the EEC was a “bosses club” that would benefit European big business and banking interests at the expense of European workers. This appeared very plainly to the British Left, as the EEC was essentially a free-trade area established to integrate the European economy into a single bloc that could rival the United States and the Soviet Union. In the game of inter-imperialist competition, the workers always lose. I do not think anyone can argue that the workers lost since joining the EU, yes there were some sops but inequality has rose exponentially. There is no doubt in my mind that since the beginning of the capitalist crisis in 2008 the institutions at the heart of the EU – the European Commission and the European Central Bank – have shown their true colours by imposing capitalist austerity across Europe. Look at how they destroyed Greece for instance. Its a capitalist club.

Above all else, we need a socialist transformation of society by the working class. The EU is just as much of a corrupt, big-business-run institution as our very own government of the rich. Socialism will not come from internal reforms. Neither will it be any closer with Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Breaking with the EU was not the goal , its the break with capitalism. The red wall seats saw this, they were not the racist xenophobes the liberal remain camp extolled them to be, they just wanted fairness. I will say though that the far right did indeed play on peoples fears about immigration and Farage's disgusting poster may have been pivotal in gaining the small percentage of racist halfwits.

Remain fucked up because of the arrogant notion that capitalism knows best, they never challenged the status quo.

You are one of the few people I have seen to make an articulate, reasoned and compassionate case for brexit.

However, I don't think your position is realistic nor do you have the vehicle, culture or even politican to execute it. Taking a wrecking ball to capitalism is not difficult, any number of countries have done it. The question is what do replace it with and how do you get there? Even if this fairer way of the world needs brexit, how many years are willing to wait for it, what level of collateral/ economic damage is acceptable? 10 years as the worse performing of the G7, 20 years? Where is your threshold? Your wish to move Britain from a largely Conservative country to a more left social democratic institution, for instance say like Scandinavia, Portugal? Forgive me if I have your point of view wrong but that is how it reads to me.

The gamble required is huge and once the dust settles on that Chaos, it is highly likely you end up worse off. As mentioned before, I don't see any politican that espouses the views you have, which is a shame as they come across as far more sincere than the rubbish of farage and Rees Mogg. A more realistic way in my opinion, is incremental changes within the superstructure of the EU. Slowly making things better without violently destroying the economic position of a country. Unfortunately, I think we are far further down the road to becoming another Argentina economically then Scandinavia.

 

[Rascal]

In 2016 there was no need to have an election until 2020. Surely it was logical to assume the tories would be in power for the negotiation and implementation of the deal?

Logically the Tories would have had a plan in place to leave the day after the referendum, its now 2023 and there is still no plan.

As soon as it was obvious they were clueless as to what to do, Labour could have grasped the baton but they were hamstrung by remains refusal to accept the result of the referendum and the ruinous second referendum policy pursued by Starmer. Democracy has to mean something whether you agree with the result or not. If labour had taken on the baton, it would have won the election, an election that was inevitable in my opinion because of the lack of a Tory plan. Johnson and his oven ready nonsense would never have come to pass and the last few years of disastrous Tory rule would not have occurred.

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

You are one of the few people I have seen to make an articulate, reasoned and compassionate case for brexit.

However, I don't think your position is realistic nor do you have the vehicle, culture or even politican to execute it. Taking a wrecking ball to capitalism is not difficult, any number of countries have done it. The question is what do replace it with and how do you get there? Even if this fairer way of the world needs brexit, how many years are willing to wait for it, what level of collateral/ economic damage is acceptable? 10 years as the worse performing of the G7, 20 years? Where is your threshold? Your wish to move Britain from a largely Conservative country to a more left social democratic institution, for instance say like Scandinavia, Portugal? Forgive me if I have your point of view wrong but that is how it reads to me.

The gamble required is huge and once the dust settles on that Chaos, it is highly likely you end up worse off. As mentioned before, I don't see any politican that espouses the views you have, which is a shame as they come across as far more sincere than the rubbish of farage and Rees Mogg. A more realistic way in my opinion, is incremental changes within the superstructure of the EU. Slowly making things better without violently destroying the economic position of a country. Unfortunately, I think we are far further down the road to becoming another Argentina economically then Scandinavia.

Actually, that's not the way I read his interesting post. From the point of view of the hegemonic capitalist model that determines the concrete conditions of people's lives to a great degree (and which seems to be the only game in town), it changes very little whether the U.K. are in or out of the EU. Well, there are real differences, but the bedrock of people's lives remains the same. That is what I understood him to be saying.
That's why the old Gaitskellite hostility to Europe (which continued and continues to have an afterlife more or less inertly within the Labour party) was, in my view, misguided from the very first.
Am I reading you wrong, @Rascal?

 

[blueparrot]

It takes some contortionism for those to clain they voted for Brexit because they thought somebody different would be be implementing it, that was a unicorn quality fantasy. Then have the nerve to blame those that saw what was coming that voted remain for not getting the 'right' Brexit. If you voted for Brexit this is the Brexit you voted for it was the Brexit it was aways going to be,. You messed up at least have the bollocks to admit it like one or two have.