PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[Goatmeal]

Interesting take. I am the opposite. Going into CAS I was very apprehensive because I had the feeling that there was a groundswell of opinion that regardless of the rights and wrongs of what we'd done, we needed to be banned simply because of the Football Leaks revelations. Everything was 'fresh' in that moment and the time lapse between UEFA's announcement and the CAS case was months.

Things are hugely different this time round and the major difference is time. We're looking at a process that is going to take upwards of 18 months, so by the time we're at something approaching a decision from the panel, we'll be well into 2025 if not 2026. Glazers will be gone. FSG will be gone. The landscape in the league will be totally different. The power dynamics also totally different.

You also have to look at the charges themselves. Whilst UEFA pointedly accused City of inflating sponsorships, which in many respects COULD have been argued just with the Football Leaks documents, PL charges are of false accounting. FL even on their face, can only 'prove' things from the relevant years of the leaked documents. The PL is relying on a discovery process where City will hand over documents which I presume they think will make us more guilty. That's naive beyond some belief. The PL have to prove false accounting all by themselves. The discovery process won't help them IMO.

I've seen the commentary around a potential whistleblower, and it feels remarkably far fetched to me. A whistleblower, at best can testify to what they saw, or were asked to do. But that is one person. On the other side City will be able to wheel out dozens of people, and dozens of documents and filings which attest to the veracity of their accounts. It is an enormous ask of any 'independent panel' to start accusing high ranking board members and executives all of lying based on the word of what would surely be a disgruntled employee. But in any case, I think it is unlikely that a whistleblower even exists, because if they'd had one, this wouldn't have taken 4 years to get here, and it would be all over the media that the league had a whistleblower.

Finally, there is the actual reasoning for why we've been charged now and in the manner that we have. My personal opinion is that the charges are the punishment. The idea here is simply to inflict maximum reputational damage onto the club. I reckon after 4 years they've realised "we'll never be able to prove this case, but if we bin it we'll forever be panned for not trying" so they've gone with the big long charge sheet knowing that it is now the panel's job to find us innocent but the smears will stick in the meantime.

The politicking at play is on another level to anything we've seen since Abu Dhabi came in.

Interesting take and largely where I stand with it.

Am I right in thinking for us to be found guilty of the charges by the panel there has to be concrete black & white evidence?
And not a jury type decision based on someone’s opinion.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Out of interest does anyone know who has take over from Vicky Kloss, it’s going to be a vital job in the future. Has everyone noticed a massive change in our treatment of the gutter press and media in general?

Simon Heggie has moved up I think?

 

[BillyShears]

I don't see it going that long mate, too much outside noise now for City also not to be demanding a quick resolution, certainly with irrefutable evidence on hand.

As my mother always used to say "it'll take as long as it takes!" haha.

I'm very relaxed because I have come to accept that no matter how well run the club is we'll always be talked about in the way we are until this generation of the mainstream football media is put out to pasture. There are simply too many red affiliated members in their brethren who genuinely believe that the right thing in English football is for the hierarchy of the 80's/90's to exist forever and nobody should be allowed to challenge it.

The charges and the Premier League don't scare me one bit.

 

[Holcombe bloo]

I am on the same page, certainly in terms of a high burden of proof, but I don't think it is as simplistic as just wanting to taint the brand, which they are happy to throw in to the mix at this stage?

They are accusing various auditors and sponsors of also being complicit in fraud.

That's opening up battle lines on so many fronts, aside from City and our own reputational damage.

I am maybe crediting someone at the Premier League with a modicum of legal intelligence, but they have left an open goal for BDO, Etihad and others to go after their own pound of flesh if we are cleared?

I understand your view on us not going after premier league for damages, but I wonder what view the likes of Etihad would take on this if/when cleared.

 

[hammocity]

I see Lucy Powell, MP for Manchester Central and a Blue has welcomed the findings of the Paris Dipper UEFA enquiry. Come on Lucy, you know they're to blame but please make some noise about the shit being thrown at us, it could help a little and you could become a legend!

 

[domalino]

I am on the same page, certainly in terms of a high burden of proof, but I don't think it is as simplistic as just wanting to taint the brand, which they are happy to throw in to the mix at this stage?

They are accusing various auditors and sponsors of also being complicit in fraud.

That's opening up battle lines on so many fronts, aside from City and our own reputational damage.

I am maybe crediting someone at the Premier League with a modicum of legal intelligence, but they have left an open goal for BDO, Etihad and others to go after their own pound of flesh if we are cleared?

That's sort of my point. The league have basically opened a can of legal worms, and then thrown at an independent panel and said "go ahead and prove this" knowing full well they can't. What are the panel going to do, bring in all the auditors, accountants, etc and make them give evidence? The scale of what they have to prove, as has been widely reported, is way bigger than can be realistically expected of a 3 man panel doing a part time job.

This only goes one way for me, and that is a quiet statement on the league's website in two years time saying that nothing has been proven and the league have decided to move on and not appeal the decision.

Everyone seems to be overlooking the massive missing piece in the jigsaw here, which is that we don't know who the investigators were.

The PL said they would appoint 2 experts in the field, but that's it AFAIK. Who those 2 are (ie are they actually serious people in the finance/legal world or are they career football bureaucrat) is going to have a massive bearing on how much we should treat these charges as serious vs. motivated by politics.

 

[KS55]

When the CAS case was pending and then being heard, I posted very bullishly
”We will win”. I posted it at regular intervals and CAS confirmed my optimism.
I am less optimistic this time because:
1. Who are the assessors? At CAS they were all high powered guys who could see the arguments clearly. Is that the case here? Does anyone know who will be sitting in judgement?
2. Our positions on the Mancini contract and the image rights issues may be rickety.
I think we will be found guilty in at least one of these if only as a sop to the redshirt bastards if we are cleared on all the major points. We will certainly be found guilty of non co-operation.
Total damage: £10m fine.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Should we actually be found guilty of any charges, wonder if the relevant sponsor(s) would take a case out against the PL for defamation?

I'd guess the actual outcome of all this will be a bit of smoke and a verbal/written censure for not fully cooperating.

 

[Nickyweaves]

The press have been pushing the sports washing argument for years. They think that is the only reason that Abu Dhabi are involved with City. I think they reckon that if they can introduce enough smears and bad publicity the Sheik will call it a day and withdraw.

 

[Bluewonder]

The press have been pushing the sports washing argument for years. They think that is the only reason that Abu Dhabi are involved with City. I think they reckon that if they can introduce enough smears and bad publicity the Sheik will call it a day and withdraw.

But he won't, because his ownership isn't about 'sportswashing', it's simply an investment, and it has performed very well for him so far.

 

[colinbellsboy]

"One wonders whether those pursuing the action were hopeful that the court of public opinion would gather in their favour to place pressure on the judiciary"
This was part of a post, in the law gazette, about the Barry Bennel case where, a few individuals were taking city to court, for compensation, because some lawyers said "we got off on a technicality".
Just the same with these new charges . Every man and his dog has decided we're guilty.
No pressure on the panel ,eh.

 

[Stockton Heath Blue]

I am on the same page, certainly in terms of a high burden of proof, but I don't think it is as simplistic as just wanting to taint the brand, which they are happy to throw in to the mix at this stage?

They are accusing various auditors and sponsors of also being complicit in fraud.

That's opening up battle lines on so many fronts, aside from City and our own reputational damage.

I am maybe crediting someone at the Premier League with a modicum of legal intelligence, but they have left an open goal for BDO, Etihad and others to go after their own pound of flesh if we are cleared?

I wonder, in the context of not taking any further pinches, if this gives us the leverage to say to the PL that we go after them on these points if they dare fine us for non-cooperation?

 

[pardoeofftomexico]

They are not accusing our auditors of fraud. They are looking at whether we appear to have complied with the rules of their club (i.e. the Premier League Club). The standard of evidence required will be far lower than that in a criminal investigation.

 

[halfcenturyup]

As my mother always used to say "it'll take as long as it takes!" haha.

I'm very relaxed because I have come to accept that no matter how well run the club is we'll always be talked about in the way we are until this generation of the mainstream football media is put out to pasture. There are simply too many red affiliated members in their brethren who genuinely believe that the right thing in English football is for the hierarchy of the 80's/90's to exist forever and nobody should be allowed to challenge it.

The charges and the Premier League don't scare me one bit.

Good man. I agree with you. But i also agree with TH that it won't take long. It took CAS a few months from start to finish. I would expect this to be the same, unless an appeal can be made.

Not sure I buy into these theories about the timing of the charges, either. Not sure how this helps them against an IR, and I am able to accept that the mistakes in the statement were down to incompetence, rather than time pressure.

I think it's just a process (that shouldn't have been started before UEFA had finished their case imo) winding itself down to a conclusion that will make a lot of people unhappy. And I don't mean City fans.

 

[Dubai Blue]

I understand your view on us not going after premier league for damages, but I wonder what view the likes of Etihad would take on this if/when cleared.

They're not going to do anything that requires them to open up their own accounts to even more scrutiny. People need to forget the idea that there's going to be some sort of battle for restitution if we "win".

 

[patrickblue]

They are not accusing our auditors of fraud. They are looking at whether we appear to have complied with the rules of their club (i.e. the Premier League Club). The standard of evidence required will be far lower than that in a criminal investigation.

They are in effect accusing our auditors of collusion with falsifying our published accounts, which would be fraudulent, or of incompetence.

 

[Academica]

Don't post a lot these days, but need to use some sort of forum to vent.

I find myself falling out of love with the game that has been so wrapped in to my very DNA as a person day by day. For as long as I can remember, it has made up a huge part of my life & personality. I now find the general landscape of football in general utterly depressing, rotten to the core & increasingly unbearable. The fact that the only way you can wish to see your team compete consistently for the game's biggest honours is by your club being taken over by a ruling member of a Middle Eastern royal family is something that is often, in fact, no, always lost on the detractors of City. Even withstanding how broken that is, it's not even an avenue open to clubs in Spain, Germany etc.

I love my club, Eric Brook was my Grandfather's Uncle, so it's literally been in the blood since he was smashing goal scoring records in front of 84,000 at Maine Road, but the game today fucking stinks. Gone are the days where a brilliantly managed Leeds United, Manchester City, Derby County, Nottingham Forest et al could come from nowhere & not only compete, but WIN the biggest prizes the game had to offer. Why? Because of the slow eroding of the games competitive balance by a group of entitled clubs, lobbying their own interests to prevent others using the same path they used to stardom & success. How? By changing the very foundation of what the sport is meant to be through rotten politicking dating back to the 1970's/80's. Firstly through monopolizing gate-receipts, then the breakaway Premier League & Champions League, Super League, G-14 & of course the hijacking of FFP's original purpose by moving it away from debt maintenance, to a tool to suffocate any investment @ rivals which threatens their position. Finally now, to destroy Manchester City as a competitive force at the very top of the game.

So where are the media in this? well, acting in the interests of said clubs on the whole. Whether through being pawns for these clubs via briefings & thus guaranteeing the click revenue that brings from their legions of mindless, moronic fans. Or just being bad-faith acting journalists who support these clubs themselves, distorting rulings made by CAS, the history of City post takeover, our actual ownership model & more. The battle of public opinion has been lost since Der Speigel's original 'leaks', & has tarnished the clubs commercial reputation, I don't care what anyone says. & here is what the masses never see, including most City fans, as it so brilliantly disguised... People often slate BT/Sky for their coverage, & it makes me laugh. Their subscriber base probably has a greater % of United, Liverpool & Arsenal fans than the other 17 clubs combined. It is in their VERY interest to be biased towards these clubs, commercially. The same goes for the print media. What is going to make your company richer? A positive City article, or negative one? Think about it & stop expecting impartiality.

Now, do I love our owner? Honestly no, not any more than I would any billionaire I have 0 connection to. Do I love the fact they've made my club competitive & made all my dreams come true for 15+ years, yes I fucking do, unashamedly. In an ideal world I'd love City to be fan owned, competing at the highest level. The fact is, it's impossible due to the points outlined, namely the hijacking by a bunch of greed driven, self-interested vile clubs across Europe of the games purity, with their proxy journalists in tow, spouting their interests for generations to garner public support. With that said, we take what we can get don't we? Even so, we have to put up with all this shit, & I'm tired of it, I just want to be a football fan.

The only thing Manchester City are guilty of, is gaming a rigged system.

Brilliant post, I have been watching City since 1970 and watch nearly every football game I can. My weekend revolves around watching football. Not any more, this weekend I was at the match but did not watch any other football, I didn't even look at any other results. I will continue to attend the home games and will find a foreign channel to watch the away games. My love of football has gone, my love and passion for City has increased. I haven't bought a paper for about ten years but used to punish myself with talk shite sometimes when driving, no more. Its just City for me now and Bluemoon of course.

 

[Keeper!]

I am on the same page, certainly in terms of a high burden of proof, but I don't think it is as simplistic as just wanting to taint the brand, which they are happy to throw in to the mix at this stage?

They are accusing various auditors and sponsors of also being complicit in fraud.

That's opening up battle lines on so many fronts, aside from City and our own reputational damage.

I am maybe crediting someone at the Premier League with a modicum of legal intelligence, but they have left an open goal for BDO, Etihad and others to go after their own pound of flesh if we are cleared?

If the irrefutable evidence is clear and obvious I would imagine the PL will have law suits littering there letterbox from one and all and rightly so.

 

[halfcenturyup]

CAS relied very heavily on witness statements but on the flip UEFAs expert witness was never afforded access to the full records . I can’t remember the quote but it was something like he had seen the tip-off the ice berg but not what went on below.

CAS weren’t in a position to test the witness statements because UEFA didnt have evidence to back up the emails although when the accounts were particularly made available the amounts and timing of payments was in accord with the second email.

People are reading too much into the CAS judgment. For 1 it’s in accord with Swiss Law and 2 it, ad it’s something I keep repeating UEFA didn’t pursue to the end the fact that some documents were never disclosed they in effect gave up on that approach had they focused on that it’s highly likely that CAS would have come to the same conclusion as UEFA.

I just can’t see how City will even remotely be able to defend full non disclosure( if that’s what happened) when there was a HC ruling on the matter and indeed a PL arbitration panel has likewise confirmed contractual obligations

When the PL and City disclose in full the evidence they will rely on at the tribunal other than the hearing where that evidence will be examined it’s unlikely that even if it goes to a further hearing that either party will be allowed to reduce any further info.

On what do you base that conclusion?

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

If the irrefutable evidence is clear and obvious I would imagine the PL will have law suits littering there letterbox from one and all and rightly so.

Hopefully. We can just ruin them by proxy!