Scrapping VAT and removing charitable schools - Labour policy - do you agree with it ?

[Kompany Car]

I believe iGCSE is generally viewed as slightly more difficult. Certainly used to be as IGCSEs were pretty much all exam based, though I think GCSEs are heading that way too now.

One of my daughters did GCSEs and the other IGCSEs. I found the IGCSE quite a bit more demanding when helping them both with their studies.

Probably isn't much to choose between them in reality though.

The thing with IGCSEs is that you can sit them in either November, January or May/June. With GCSE it’s only May/June so the IGCSE allows the exams to be spread out more rather than having the situation of kids doing 2 exams a day in very different subjects on multiple days in a week.

The older, more coursework based GCSE was definitely easier, but the new purely exam based assessments that were introduced around 4yrs ago are far more challenging.

Like you say on the whole they are broadly similar now, but the Edexcel board papers are the least forgiving.

 

[PragueBlue]

The thing with IGCSEs is that you can sit them in either November, January or May/June. With GCSE it’s only May/June so the IGCSE allows the exams to be spread out more rather than having the situation of kids doing 2 exams a day in very different subjects on multiple days in a week.

The older, more coursework based GCSE was definitely easier, but the new purely exam based assessments that were introduced around 4yrs ago are far more challenging.

Like you say on the whole they are broadly similar now, but the Edexcel board papers are the least forgiving.

My youngest did both (some subjects GCSE and some IGCSE) and sat them all in May/June with multiple exams per day and week. That was the only option open to her at the school she attended, though that wasn't in the UK. Perhaps it's different here.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I heard today less than 3k kids attend public schools - how many are from UK families rather than from abroad? How often is there more than one child attending? The number of UK votes at risk over what - 600 seats? - there is a miniscule risk

That sounds a nonsense stat. There will be more than that number in Edinburgh. Stew Mel, George Watson’s, Ed Academy, Herriots, Merch Castle, Mary Erskine, St Mary’s, Fettes. Need I go on. All thriving on local based kids. If that’s Edinburgh, Glasgow is similar and I can only imagine the number in London and the Home Counties.

Anyway. They should ban it. For sure. I would go further and take all of them under public ownership so there is one education system for our children. Like the Scandinavian countries.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Isn't it time that they were truly privatised and listed on the stock exchange?

If private schools are so outstanding and impressive surely they can grow, operate at scale and have no need for charitable status or state subsidies?

 

[Kompany Car]

No - I am saying that central Govt to local authority funding is deliberately structured to reduce what they pay as they take into account a local authority can hold some money back from the VAT reclaim - thats the sort of thing Hunt was alluding to last nigh when he said pay rises had to be funded from "savings" in existing budgets

I wasn’t aware what Hunt was saying last night. I agree that schools are very underfunded and that teachers should not be paid for by the school itself but instead by a centrally managed fund. At the moment the set up is deliberately divisive.

 

[Bill]

I heard today less than 3k kids attend public schools - how many are from UK families rather than from abroad? How often is there more than one child attending? The number of UK votes at risk over what - 600 seats? - there is a miniscule risk

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That sounds a nonsense stat. There will be more than that number in Edinburgh. Stew Mel, George Watson’s, Ed Academy, Herriots, Merch Castle, Mary Erskine, St Mary’s, Fettes. Need I go on. All thriving on local based kids. If that’s Edinburgh, Glasgow is similar and I can only imagine the number in London and the Home Counties.

Anyway. They should ban it. For sure. I would go further and take all of them under public ownership so there is one education system for our children. Like the Scandinavian countries.

Sounds to me like that number is public schools, not private schools. Without trying to confirm it, I suspect there's a difference in what is classed as a public school, and that that 3k relates to the likes of Eton, Harrow, Charterhouse...

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sounds to me like that number is public schools, not private schools. Without trying to confirm it, I suspect there's a difference in what is classed as a public school, and that that 3k relates to the likes of Eton, Harrow, Charterhouse...

ok. maybe. Whats the difference? Both are fee paying and VAT exempt.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sounds to me like that number is public schools, not private schools. Without trying to confirm it, I suspect there's a difference in what is classed as a public school, and that that 3k relates to the likes of Eton, Harrow, Charterhouse...

Found this:

However, the term public school has an entirely different definition in the UK education system. Public schools are perceived as the most exclusive and prestigious private schools in the UK, as well-known examples include Eton College, Harrow School and Wellington College. Most public schools are highly selective, as many contain boarding facilities for students as well. Such term is indeed highly confusing owing to the traditional definition of the word 'public' as academic institutions that are independent from the English church and government. Apart from public schools, the other two forms of fee-paying schools in the UK include private schools and independent schools. Whilst independent schools are overseen by a board of governors or trustees, private schools are run by the owners, thus are comparatively more selective. On the contrary, government-funded schools are labelled as state schools, as most provide education free of charge. Some students from state schools will also be selected to attend more academically-oriented secondary schools called grammar schools through the 11-plus exam. However, international students must have a British or European Union passport in order to enroll into a state school.

 

[Kompany Car]

I would disagree with that on the whole, though perhaps true at some of the 'elite' schools like Harrow and Eton.

My children have all been to both private and state schools at various times. The majority of parents at the different private schools they attended would fall more into the middle class bracket such as small business owners, estate agents, solicitors, accountants etc.

I don't really feel the names of the schools they attended would give them any great advantage or contacts going forward either. I also suspect that the parents do check out the school, Ofsted reports and exam results etc before deciding to send their children there, just like I did.

Hmm, my son went to a state primary and junior school and then got a partially funded scholarship awarded (only partially as they take into account the income of the parents).

When I look at the opportunities he has had purely through the networks he has built up within the private school, they are far beyond those which most of the kids who remained in the the state school system have had.

 

[Kompany Car]

Found this:

However, the term public school has an entirely different definition in the UK education system. Public schools are perceived as the most exclusive and prestigious private schools in the UK, as well-known examples include Eton College, Harrow School and Wellington College. Most public schools are highly selective, as many contain boarding facilities for students as well. Such term is indeed highly confusing owing to the traditional definition of the word 'public' as academic institutions that are independent from the English church and government. Apart from public schools, the other two forms of fee-paying schools in the UK include private schools and independent schools. Whilst independent schools are overseen by a board of governors or trustees, private schools are run by the owners, thus are comparatively more selective. On the contrary, government-funded schools are labelled as state schools, as most provide education free of charge. Some students from state schools will also be selected to attend more academically-oriented secondary schools called grammar schools through the 11-plus exam. However, international students must have a British or European Union passport in order to enroll into a state school.

To keep it simple all public schools are private schools but not all private schools are public schools.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

ok. maybe. Whats the difference? Both are fee paying and VAT exempt.

Looks like you found an answer!
It's a messy set of terms - differs between Scotland and England, I think.
In England, private schools are private, public schools are also private, state schools are public... independent schools are something...

 

[Saddleworth2]

To keep it simple all public schools are private schools but not all private schools are public schools.

typical bloody UK class ridden society where 'public' means 'not allowed unless your father attended and you have a fucking huge amount of money and are a singularly arrogant fuck'.

Ban the lot.

 

[threespires]

Hmm, my son went to a state primary and junior school and then got a partially funded scholarship awarded (only partially as they take into account the income of the parents).

When I look at the opportunities he has had purely through the networks he has built up within the private school, they are far beyond those which most of the kids who remained in the the state school system have had.

I think that's really the point, doubtless the lower teacher pupil ratio helps with classroom management which in turn significantly impacts learning quality etc, but a lot of the benefit is that it allows you to build up more 'social capital' the relationships, networks and importantly 'know how' you develop is worth a significant amount across a lifetime.

I'm going to massively generalise but I think the properly rich & upper classes understand social capital explicitly and fully know how to leverage it to the hilt, whereas the middle classes leverage their social capital but often without realising or refusing to acknowledge that they have these intangible assets that benefit them or give them an advantage. It's not malicious, they just assume that everyone has access to these things they have if only they really tried.

 

[PragueBlue]

Hmm, my son went to a state primary and junior school and then got a partially funded scholarship awarded (only partially as they take into account the income of the parents).

When I look at the opportunities he has had purely through the networks he has built up within the private school, they are far beyond those which most of the kids who remained in the the state school system have had.

I wouldn't say mine will gain, or have gained, any advantage due to their contacts/networks but there again they are not particularly well known schools and most of their classmates were offspring of the middle class, rather than high flyers.

 

[meltonblue]

I would disagree with that on the whole, though perhaps true at some of the 'elite' schools like Harrow and Eton.

My children have all been to both private and state schools at various times. The majority of parents at the different private schools they attended would fall more into the middle class bracket such as small business owners, estate agents, solicitors, accountants etc.

I don't really feel the names of the schools they attended would give them any great advantage or contacts going forward either. I also suspect that the parents do check out the school, Ofsted reports and exam results etc before deciding to send their children there, just like I did.

My first point about the affordability is from the research done, if VAT were scrapped then if the schools pass all of it onto the parents, which is a big if as some won’t, then around 17% would be priced out of it (I doubt the conservatives would say that group need to be more aspirational and get a better paid job though ;)). The actual figure would be lower than that though due to the changes in provision some would do. Either way that’s still 83% that are still fine.

On the latter, I was purely talking about my own experience and the people who were at the grammar school and university that were privately educated, I’ve benefitted from making those connections myself at the grammar school.

 

[PragueBlue]

My first point about the affordability is from the research done, if VAT were scrapped then if the schools pass all of it onto the parents, which is a big if as some won’t, then around 17% would be priced out of it (I doubt the conservatives would say that group need to be more aspirational and get a better paid job though ;)). The actual figure would be lower than that though due to the changes in provision some would do. Either way that’s still 83% that are still fine.

On the latter, I was purely talking about my own experience and the people who were at the grammar school and university that were privately educated, I’ve benefitted from making those connections myself at the grammar school.

Maybe my kids just mixed with the wrong people and made the wrong contacts ;-)

I don't think they are going to derive any real benefit in their chosen careers but appreciate it may be different for others.

 

[Kompany Car]

I think that's really the point, doubtless the lower teacher pupil ratio helps with classroom management which in turn significantly impacts learning quality etc, but a lot of the benefit is that it allows you to build up more 'social capital' the relationships, networks and importantly 'know how' you develop is worth a significant amount across a lifetime.

I'm going to massively generalise but I think the properly rich & upper classes understand social capital explicitly and fully know how to leverage it to the hilt, whereas the middle classes leverage their social capital but often without realising or refusing to acknowledge that they have these intangible assets that benefit them or give them an advantage. It's not malicious, they just assume that everyone has access to these things they have if only they really tried.

One thing that surprised me was that the kids were actively encouraged to challenge the view of teachers. Something which I don’t think tends to happen in state schools that much. With opinions being examined and broken down.

Obviously it’s expected to be done in a constructive manner (so no shouting from the back with expletives), but it does break down the boundaries of challenging authority and hierarchy, which holds back many people from normal backgrounds.

I know from my own experience of dealing with very senior people in businesses, I often feel a bit of an imposter because of my background and conditioning around hierarchical structures within society which starts from school. Thankfully my son seems to have less of that baggage.

 

[meltonblue]

Maybe my kids just mixed with the wrong people and made the wrong contacts ;-)

I don't think they are going to derive any real benefit in their chosen careers but appreciate it may be different for others.

Quite a few I knew got a work experience placement at friends parents companies and subsequently went to work for them.

Unless someone’s in a catchment area that doesn’t have a decent state school, I’m not sure why else someone would do it if it’s not around the social aspect, even if it’s not around potential career benefits, or because they can easily afford to do it.

 

[PragueBlue]

Quite a few I knew got a work experience placement at friends parents companies and subsequently went to work for them.

Unless someone’s in a catchment area that doesn’t have a decent state school, I’m not sure why else someone would do it if it’s not around the social aspect, even if it’s not around potential career benefits, or because they can easily afford to do it.

I did it because I felt (and my children did) that they were the schools where they would feel happiest. They were born abroad and were used to international schools and the private schools here gave them a better continuation of their education. It has seemingly worked out well for them thus far and so no regrets.