Irish Current Affairs

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

At all costs too, I believe.
As is their prerogative I might add, but I do feel through history they have had a much bigger say in Westminster than population should dictate.
They know that when propping up Tory governments in Commons voting, they have big leverage.
This is why I say, they need to be careful where they place their trust. If not required the Tories would drop them, no problem.

If you want to go back to the foundation’s of the state it was no different. My opinion is it should never have happened and there were enough mistakes to go around from both sides of the table, but it was the influence of unionism in Northern Ireland which was supporting a coalition government at the time, with Lloyd George as Prime Minister.
George was a Liberal but Churchill was heavily involved in what happened at and after partition.

The problem for unionism now is they see the writing on the wall. They see a time where they will not hold a majority in the North and they can’t contemplate a future they like.

The GFA is democracy in action and it is protection for them that we down south have agreed to. There’s a lot down south will have to have that reality slapped across their face too, when and if the time comes.
But I do think the D in the DUP is a cheek. This from the party that espoused ‘Ulster Says No’.

When I look at Irish history objectively now, which unlike at school, I enjoy doing, I look at those that tried their best in a British system that was slanted against them. Tried their best to Democratically and peacefully make change.
People like Daniel O’Connell and Charles Stewart Parnell. To my mind these were great men.
But the British establishment admittedly with other world problems on their minds, ignored repeated Democratic votes in Ireland and in the end pandered to what was a minority on the island.
Even the drawing up of the border eventually, was done so in a way to maintain a Protestant Unionist majority.

Listen, it’s history. I’m not saying forget, but let’s forgive and get on with it. That is exactly what I believe we did when we voted for the GFA. I believe we sacrificed quite a lot in changing our constitution in the interest of peace and democracy.

Brexit as was pointed out at the time, never took into account that international agreement you had concerning one little corner of your own little union. As I say, Northern Ireland is an afterthought to any Tory government.

I know where my trust would lie if I was living in the North.

i agree with everything you are saying here...you are correct in saying that we have very much punched above our weight when it comes to the influence we have had on the UK as a whole. purely off the back of Tory need for back up. Imagine of SF properly took up their roles in Westminster and stood up against them?

I must also admit, i rarely consider the thoughts of you mexicans in all of this...easy to forget that your votes will have an impact on it all.
Is the North a common topic? Is reunification a common topic?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I know I’m wrong but my gut tells me , it could be done quicker and with more elegance than Scottish independence. That is assuming a majority in NI wanted it. How would they know they didn’t want it without painting a pretty detailed picture of what the solution could be? Who would ever have the credibility to lead a calm and reasoned conversation with the good folk of NI around that subject.

Eh, sorry I’m busy that weekend.

I’ve said it many times in here Sadds, but I feel the opposite. Said it decades ago, that I always thought Scotland would go first before ever seeing a United Ireland, whatever that may be.

Who knows now though. Brexit really threw a spanner in many works.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

i agree with everything you are saying here...you are correct in saying that we have very much punched above our weight when it comes to the influence we have had on the UK as a whole. purely off the back of Tory need for back up. Imagine of SF properly took up their roles in Westminster and stood up against them?

I must also admit, i rarely consider the thoughts of you mexicans in all of this...easy to forget that your votes will have an impact on it all.
Is the North a common topic? Is reunification a common topic?

Most my mates think similar.
I don’t think you’ll get many an Irishman that would vote against reunification but we think it would be an economical and logistical nightmare.

There are so many delicacies about it and perhaps, I don’t trust our present shower in FG and FF to tackle it without making the same mistakes of the past.

Now if Sinn Fein got in down here which is highly likely would they have the will as well as the know how and not least the credibility up North and in Westminster, to deal with these delicacies correctly.

I’ll be waiting for them to come around my door for my vote. I’ve a lot to ask them.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

that Scottish politics has diverged significantly from Englands and irrespective of who is voted into Westminster they will not represent the majority in Scotland. That devolved powers only go so far and that Scotland would be a happier more successful country if it was independent. That membership of a European Union is preferable to being tethered to a failing United Kingdom where England carries all of the constitutional power.

would it be easy? Certainly not. Would it be worth it for generations to come, certainly.

Would a majority in NI still favour being ruled by Westminster.
would an alternative model within a United Ireland not feature regional assemblies that would represent the different priorities of a diverse populace? Is the mistrust of Dublin 100% historical or are their present day valid concerns?

I get the impression that views in Scotland are probably much more anti-English than they are over here...and perhaps thats the thing, it appears to be anti-English and not necessarily anti-British or anti-UK.

For loyalists, remaining British is much more important that remaining in the EU. Its not because they dont want to be in the EU, or because leaving was/is "better"...its because they just want to remain British. in my opinion of course.

Interestingly, and possibly discussed in the past on here...but i think the phrase "United Ireland" is problematic. Without rehashing old conversations...imo again, there wont be a United Ireland in the way the phrase suggests, or how people expect it to be...ie rejoin RoI and goodbye UK/GB. I would expect that a reunified Ireland / New Ireland will somehow have input from GB and RoI....i think thats what you are suggesting?

I personally dont think its a distrust of Dublin, again its more an issue of reduced or lost Britishness...i hope that makes sense.

Id like to see more input and involvement from RoI...even very simple things like broader news reports, tv shows from down south. Normalising all of Ireland

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I get the impression that views in Scotland are probably much more anti-English than they are over here...and perhaps thats the thing, it appears to be anti-English and not necessarily anti-British or anti-UK.

For loyalists, remaining British is much more important that remaining in the EU. Its not because they dont want to be in the EU, or because leaving was/is "better"...its because they just want to remain British. in my opinion of course.

Interestingly, and possibly discussed in the past on here...but i think the phrase "United Ireland" is problematic. Without rehashing old conversations...imo again, there wont be a United Ireland in the way the phrase suggests, or how people expect it to be...ie rejoin RoI and goodbye UK/GB. I would expect that a reunified Ireland / New Ireland will somehow have input from GB and RoI....i think thats what you are suggesting?

I personally dont think its a distrust of Dublin, again its more an issue of reduced or lost Britishness...i hope that makes sense.

Id like to see more input and involvement from RoI...even very simple things like broader news reports, tv shows from down south. Normalising all of Ireland

It’s exactly why I usually put ‘United’ in inverted commas. I too don’t think it will be anything like the historical nationalist view of it.
This is the slap in the face I talk about when it comes to discussing this down here.
People I know realise the reality of the situation but I think it’ll have to be explained meticulously to the nation whenever such a proposition arises.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Who would ever have the credibility to lead a calm and reasoned conversation with the good folk of NI around that subject.

This is why i like Colum Eastwood as i think he/they are really the only ones pushing hard for these conversations:

New Ireland Commission

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Building a New Ireland Together

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Whether you agree or disagree with them, the conversations need to be had...i actually find it a quite exciting/positive topic

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

This is why i like Colum Eastwood as i think he/they are really the only ones pushing hard for these conversations:

New Ireland Commission

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Building a New Ireland Together

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Whether you agree or disagree with them, the conversations need to be had...i actually find it a quite exciting/positive topic

May we live in exciting times.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

This is why i like Colum Eastwood as i think he/they are really the only ones pushing hard for these conversations:

New Ireland Commission

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Building a New Ireland Together

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Whether you agree or disagree with them, the conversations need to be had...i actually find it a quite exciting/positive topic

Dunno if i should add, but i will....im not a big fan of the SDLP as a party, have never actually voted for them.....where i live there is literally no point as it would be me and their candidate voting for them :-|...but i quite like him as a person/politician and respect how he is trying to ask questions and stir conversation. Id like to think John Hume would be proud of him.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I get the impression that views in Scotland are probably much more anti-English than they are over here...and perhaps thats the thing, it appears to be anti-English and not necessarily anti-British or anti-UK.

For loyalists, remaining British is much more important that remaining in the EU. Its not because they dont want to be in the EU, or because leaving was/is "better"...its because they just want to remain British. in my opinion of course.

Interestingly, and possibly discussed in the past on here...but i think the phrase "United Ireland" is problematic. Without rehashing old conversations...imo again, there wont be a United Ireland in the way the phrase suggests, or how people expect it to be...ie rejoin RoI and goodbye UK/GB. I would expect that a reunified Ireland / New Ireland will somehow have input from GB and RoI....i think thats what you are suggesting?

I personally dont think its a distrust of Dublin, again its more an issue of reduced or lost Britishness...i hope that makes sense.

Id like to see more input and involvement from RoI...even very simple things like broader news reports, tv shows from down south. Normalising all of Ireland

I disagree that the Scots are 'anti english' albeit I can see how you would come to that conclusion. It is factual that the make up of the Westminster Government favours England as it is the largest country and has the most MP's and by far the greatest proportion of a vote. Also factual is that Scotland has not favoured the Tory party at any general election since the 50's despite the fact they have been in power for most of the time since and the English have a propensity to vote for them before any other party. Thats not anti English its just fact. Scottish politics continue to diverge from England as this Brexit map shows:

When priorities for the UK are voted on, invariable the English vote carries the day.
When the Scottish Parliament asks for a referendum the Westminster parliament can say no until doomsday. There is currently no legal route for Scotland to exit the United Kingdom. Again, not anti English, just fact. So there you have it. NI has a route to self determination through the GFA. Scotland has no such route. Our policies for Social Care, Fishing, Famring and Agriculture, Oil, Energy, Water all differ from Englands and yet only some of that falls within the bounds of devolved parliament. So you see its not anti English. Far more pro Scottish.

 

[Saddleworth2]

This is why i like Colum Eastwood as i think he/they are really the only ones pushing hard for these conversations:

New Ireland Commission

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Building a New Ireland Together

The Social Democratic and Labour Party champions social justice, equality and fairness for everyone in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland.

www.sdlp.ie

Whether you agree or disagree with them, the conversations need to be had...i actually find it a quite exciting/positive topic

I like his words and sentiment.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

I disagree that the Scots are 'anti english' albeit I can see how you would come to that conclusion. It is factual that the make up of the Westminster Government favours England as it is the largest country and has the most MP's and by far the greatest proportion of a vote. Also factual is that Scotland has not favoured the Tory party at any general election since the 50's despite the fact they have been in power for most of the time since and the English have a propensity to vote for them before any other party. Thats not anti English its just fact. Scottish politics continue to diverge from England as this Brexit map shows:

When priorities for the UK are voted on, invariable the English vote carries the day.
When the Scottish Parliament asks for a referendum the Westminster parliament can say no until doomsday. There is currently no legal route for Scotland to exit the United Kingdom. Again, not anti English, just fact. So there you have it. NI has a route to self determination through the GFA. Scotland has no such route. Our policies for Social Care, Fishing, Famring and Agriculture, Oil, Energy, Water all differ from Englands and yet only some of that falls within the bounds of devolved parliament. So you see its not anti English. Far more pro Scottish.

Thats good to hear, and highlights my ignorance of Scottish politics (which stems from being sick and tired of politics in general :-) )

Brexit aside, what are we all asking for? More devolved powers? Would that improve our places in the UK? Im under the impression we each have significant control over our provinces (if only our assembly would actually go to work)...is this talk of Scottish Independence and Irish Reunification being driven purely by Brexit? Probably.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thats good to hear, and highlights my ignorance of Scottish politics (which stems from being sick and tired of politics in general :-) )

Brexit aside, what are we all asking for? More devolved powers? Would that improve our places in the UK? Im under the impression we each have significant control over our provinces (if only our assembly would actually go to work)...is this talk of Scottish Independence and Irish Reunification being driven purely by Brexit? Probably.

Its not just Brexit. Its full power over all of the levers that would allow us to form the economic, ecological and social policies for a outward looking, inclusive, modern Scotland. Immigration? We'll have some of that thanks.

The United Kingdom policies for the last few decades has created a prosperous London and South East to the detriment of every other area. There is no devolution in England to help the North and South West. Scottish powers do not go far enough.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Its not just Brexit. Its full power over all of the levers that would allow us to form the economic, ecological and social policies for a outward looking, inclusive, modern Scotland. Immigration? We'll have some of that thanks.

The United Kingdom policies for the last few decades has created a prosperous London and South East to the detriment of every other area. There is no devolution in England to help the North and South West. Scottish powers do not go far enough.

Again this comes from lack of knowledge, not argument....would more devolved powers help/solve that? If the UK government offered more of what you are hoping for.

i ask as it feels relevant to the situation here...whilst i welcome the idea of a reunified Ireland, not gonna lie...i also like the idea of holding on to the benefits of remaining in the UK (right now i have no idea what those benefits are LOL)...but i dont think it should be an all or nothing argument. I appreciate Scotland doesnt really have that route, as you mentioned yourself....but it could/should be part of the conversation for Scotland too?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Again this comes from lack of knowledge, not argument....would more devolved powers help/solve that? If the UK government offered more of what you are hoping for.

i ask as it feels relevant to the situation here...whilst i welcome the idea of a reunified Ireland, not gonna lie...i also like the idea of holding on to the benefits of remaining in the UK (right now i have no idea what those benefits are LOL)...but i dont think it should be an all or nothing argument. I appreciate Scotland doesnt really have that route, as you mentioned yourself....but it could/should be part of the conversation for Scotland too?

The only way I can see devolvement helping stop the breakup of the UK is a more radical version which also covers English regions. The concentration of economic activity and wealth in London and the SE is nothing short of obscene. Levelling up is nothing but a joke at present. If England had say 4 assemblies and Westminster was slimmed down to foreign policy and defence then that might help but it will never happen as it would need a scrapping of centuries of parliamentary pomp.

wouldn't it be interesting if NI/Ireland and Scotland ran in parallel to come up with a solution that satisfied all. If Scotland voted and NI voted to leave the UK alongside England/Wales finally biting the bullet around membership of the single market you could see a number of solutions opening up.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

The only way I can see devolvement helping stop the breakup of the UK is a more radical version which also covers English regions. The concentration of economic activity and wealth in London and the SE is nothing short of obscene. Levelling up is nothing but a joke at present. If England had say 4 assemblies and Westminster was slimmed down to foreign policy and defence then that might help but it will never happen as it would need a scrapping of centuries of parliamentary pomp.

wouldn't it be interesting if NI/Ireland and Scotland ran in parallel to come up with a solution that satisfied all. If Scotland voted and NI voted to leave the UK alongside England/Wales finally biting the bullet around membership of the single market you could see a number of solutions opening up.

No better time to repost these ;)

 

[Saddleworth2]

No better time to repost these ;)

You would still beat us at Rugby I fear.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

You would still beat us at Rugby I fear.

Some combined team though!

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I disagree that the Scots are 'anti english' albeit I can see how you would come to that conclusion. It is factual that the make up of the Westminster Government favours England as it is the largest country and has the most MP's and by far the greatest proportion of a vote. Also factual is that Scotland has not favoured the Tory party at any general election since the 50's despite the fact they have been in power for most of the time since and the English have a propensity to vote for them before any other party. Thats not anti English its just fact. Scottish politics continue to diverge from England as this Brexit map shows:

When priorities for the UK are voted on, invariable the English vote carries the day.
When the Scottish Parliament asks for a referendum the Westminster parliament can say no until doomsday. There is currently no legal route for Scotland to exit the United Kingdom. Again, not anti English, just fact. So there you have it. NI has a route to self determination through the GFA. Scotland has no such route. Our policies for Social Care, Fishing, Famring and Agriculture, Oil, Energy, Water all differ from Englands and yet only some of that falls within the bounds of devolved parliament. So you see its not anti English. Far more pro Scottish.

It’s interesting that you say you have no legal route to Scotland leaving the union.
To me that’s not a union and although I advocate peaceful means and democracy at all times, it is perfectly understandable where the 1916 Rising, arose from.
There are a number of issues around that whole time in Irish/British relations but suffice to say there were a number of people In the country who could not see a democratic way to independence.
If you look at it from an Irish perspective, it is understandable why, considering the historical truth of British rule on the island.

The fact is, what you are describing in Scotland would be enough for revolt here, but the reality of our history is worse than what you are ‘enduring’, if that’s the correct word to use. You decide.

To be honest it’s not just Scotland. We hardly understand what the ordinary working class Englishman puts up with at times, given how much they complain about the system and it’s abuse.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

No better time to repost these ;)

Never saw that before. You’ve tweaked my interest.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Wouldn't it be interesting if NI/Ireland and Scotland ran in parallel to come up with a solution that satisfied all.

This is going to sound strange coming from an Irishman but I don’t believe this would be possible without separation of church and state.
The irony hasn’t escaped me but the truth of the matter is, Britain introduced this as an issue into Ireland.
The fact that the Monarchy enshrines in your unwritten constitution this concept of head of the church and head of the state, it is and always has been a stumbling block in Ireland.
The fact that to take office you had to take an oath of allegiance, was never going to work.
Whatever about what you think of a monarchy in this day and age, in days gone by, sectarianism was a part and parcel of British rule on this island and it is synonymous with the monarchy.

Just as an aside or maybe a historical indicator of where I’m coming from, Daniel O’Connell known as the Catholic emancipator, in fact advocated the separation of church and state as far back as the 1820’s.
You could argue that DeValera set that movement back for half a century, but we are well and truly there now I believe.

Whatever about an independent Scotland and Ireland coming together the GFA protecting NI’s right to be British would be one of those delicacies that would have to be danced around in any Republic of Craic.

Sadds;
If Scotland voted and NI voted to leave the UK alongside England/Wales finally biting the bullet around membership of the single market you could see a number of solutions opening up.

Not sure if it’s just a punctuation thing Sadds, but explain your thought process here please.