HS2 - Birmingham to Manchester scrapped.

blueinsa said:
Well colour me surprised…

This government is fucking rubbish, charlatans and sadly it’s looking like the incoming one next year won’t be much fucking better as they seemingly are also towing the “cost” lines being trotted out.

No shit massive national infrastructure projects cost money. Just fucking build it, it’s needed, we can afford it and don’t let any of these cunts tell you otherwise.

The UK is basically at the point it can’t build a few hundred fucking miles of railway line, embarrassing.
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There has to be something bigger playing out here (don't ask me what!).

This gets leaked before the Conservatives land in Manchester in a weeks time - no chance they will have been wanting the entire conference being obliterated but this surely?

Shapp's reasoning (does he wear a hair piece?) doesn't stack at all - surely the benefits of connecting the North and releasing the congestion on the normal routes down the spine of the country etc have only been heightened by Brexit / COVID etc etc meaning there would be even more need and benefit to see the original project through?

Surely Labour confirm that they will build the entire thing from start to finish and they win the next GE at an absolute canter.

Even folks that weren't 'pro' HS2 in the North will probably still want to ensure that the government actually sees through one of its promises to the north part of the country.............
 
dickie davies said:
Between Middlewich and Northwich the old salt mines have been repurposed to become the UK's largest underground gas storage facility and HS2 was planned to run right along the length of it
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Pretty sure they were stable enough, with minimal settlement to build over the top.
 
staffsblue said:
The other selling point was meant to be around severely reducing the need for domestic air travel, with the subsequent environmental benefits.
In France, the development of the TGV network has made their internal airline "Air Inter" surplus to requirements.
Obviously, in the UK, there will always be the requirement to fly to Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Aberdeen, Inverness and the Scottish islands. However, the days of domestic flights from the North of England to London were meant to be numbered.
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You are correct Staffs. I remember reading an article a while back that laid out how, in the face of consistent challenges from those that questioned the HS2 cost or environmental case, the gvmt and supporters began to invent more and more creative reasons to support it. Reduction in air travel was one as you rightly point out.
The description I recall was ’like hanging more and more baubles on a Christmas tree.’
it can’t be easy constructing an accurate case for such a big infrastructure project but they are miles off. Everybody involved is responsible but nobody will be accountable. The losers as always is us gammons who continue to pay our taxes and accept the crap.
 
dickie davies said:
Two massively different projects
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Technically Crossrail was much more challenging. Tunnelling across parts of London, lots of very complex interfaces to manage etc. HS2 was needlessly made more complicated than was necessary due to the route being designed by committee. Lots of limitations were imposed by politicians due to pressure from voters and nimbys in the home counties so that they didnt lose votes.

The french pretty much draw a line and build the railway we fuck about for ages trying to satisfy every individual.

If they do cancel it, I would hope that the money is ring fenced for the north, as once again we've been short changed after being promised the so called Northern Powerhouse which now seems dead in the water.
 
blueinsa said:
Well colour me surprised…

This government is fucking rubbish, charlatans and sadly it’s looking like the incoming one next year won’t be much fucking better as they seemingly are also towing the “cost” lines being trotted out.

No shit massive national infrastructure projects cost money. Just fucking build it, it’s needed, we can afford it and don’t let any of these cunts tell you otherwise.

The UK is basically at the point it can’t build a few hundred fucking miles of railway line, embarrassing.
Click to expand...

We really don’t need HS2 tho. The travel routes are pretty decent between London-Manchester and London-Leeds etc, the time savings suggested really are not that good compared to what we have now (Although when checking just now the suggested times seem to be far more optimistic that they were at the start, when it was said to be about 30 mins faster, now saying 54 )

Personally what we really need is a far better Liverpool-Manchester-leeds-Newcastle line.
 
grunge said:
We really don’t need HS2 tho. The travel routes are pretty decent between London-Manchester and London-Leeds etc, the time savings suggested really are not that good compared to what we have now (Although when checking just now the suggested times seem to be far more optimistic that they were at the start, when it was said to be about 30 mins faster, now saying 54 )

Personally what we really need is a far better Liverpool-Manchester-leeds-Newcastle line.
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I Suspect that will be the pre election pledge when they announce HS2 cannot go any further than Birmingham as the Tories are happy to take northern votes for fuck all in return.
 
grunge said:
Personally what we really need is a far better Liverpool-Manchester-leeds-Newcastle line.
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That was the vision of the future for Northern Powerhouse Rail. Not to Newcastle but certainly a link from Liverpool all the way to Hull on upgraded lines running at higher speeds. Not quite sure why anyone would want to go to Hull but that was the plan.

This relied on Transpennine being done in its original envisioned form. Guess what ...it hasn't, descope after descope.

The grand vision was for HS3 to link Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds on a new rail corridor but that went in the bin in 2021 and was destined to go there as soon as the Tories had convinced people in the North to vote them in for another term back in 2019.
 
Kompany Car said:
That was the vision of the future for Northern Powerhouse Rail. Not to Newcastle but certainly a link from Liverpool all the way to Hull on upgraded lines running at higher speeds. Not quite sure why anyone would want to go to Hull but that was the plan.
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Surely the point of the Hull upgrade is to enable people to leave it more expeditiously!
 
grunge said:
We really don’t need HS2 tho. The travel routes are pretty decent between London-Manchester and London-Leeds etc, the time savings suggested really are not that good compared to what we have now (Although when checking just now the suggested times seem to be far more optimistic that they were at the start, when it was said to be about 30 mins faster, now saying 54 )
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We do need it, and it's nothing at all to do with travel times, and all to do with capacity on current lines. During daytime there is very little capacity for a problem, or to use the lines for freight, so moving a substansial amount of passenger onto a new line frees up much more time for both.

I travel from Milton Keynes to home games, prices are generally a joke, but away from that, I came up for the game last Tuesday by train, there was a single tree down on route, and what should have been a 1:41 minute journey, took nearly 3 hours due to substantial diversions, through what were shite routes through the Birmingham area, where we travelled at 10-30mph for more than an hour, on tracks used for local passenger trains and freight. Needless to say my (pre-booked) ticket was given a full refund as a result, and many other trains (both ways) were just cancelled.

A dedicated line from London to Manchester and Birmingham with no stops frees up capacity. It wouldn't help me much where I live, but if it took trains off the west coast mainline, which it woulld, it would help the overall service elsewhere, and importantly allow more freight too.
 
cleavers said:
We do need it, and it's nothing at all to do with travel times, and all to do with capacity on current lines. During daytime there is very little capacity for a problem, or to use the lines for freight, so moving a substansial amount of passenger onto a new line frees up much more time for both.

I travel from Milton Keynes to home games, prices are generally a joke, but away from that, I came up for the game last Tuesday by train, there was a single tree down on route, and what should have been a 1:41 minute journey, took nearly 3 hours due to substantial diversions, through what were shite routes through the Birmingham area, where we travelled at 10-30mph for more than an hour, on tracks used for local passenger trains and freight. Needless to say my (pre-booked) ticket was given a full refund as a result, and many other trains (both ways) were just cancelled.

A dedicated line from London to Manchester and Birmingham with no stops frees up capacity. It wouldn't help me much where I live, but if it took trains off the west coast mainline, which it woulld, it would help the overall service elsewhere, and importantly allow more freight too.
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Granted extra capacity will alway help going forward. But I use the often ( and used to be part of my daily commute pre covid and I grew up in Hertfordshire and living in north west for 30 years so have been using the west main line for decades ) and rarely have an issue with capacity of passengers. Granted match days do tend to be a lot busier. Virgin used to run more trains than Arriva are too so there is scope for more trains still.

There are far more urgent projects That need addressing before we need HS2. The cross country route that goes from Manchester -> Birmingham-> Reading -> south coast / Cornwall is an abomination. I’ve regularly had to stand in cramped trains for 3.5h from Reading to Manchester after business meetings. Had seats reserved but train so busy I couldn’t even get to the seat. Warrington to Manchester is horrific transpennine Had dozens of occasion over the years where I’ve had to wait for hours before even being able to get in a train as they are all too full.

Plus HS2 is likely to be a premium cost so if the cost is bad now it’ll be worse on HS2.

As for trees on the line ( suicides are far more regular unfortunately and have the same effect of taking down whole lines for hours ) That affects every route going and unless every line has multiple alternatives which will never happen then it’s always going to be an issue.

Let’s not forget as well, as a cost saving they won’t be going underground for Manchester so a significant raised train line going right through south Manchester will be a bit issue for Manchester going forward.
 
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grunge said:
Granted extra capacity will alway help going forward. But I use the often ( and used to be part of my daily commute pre covid and I grew up in Hertfordshire and living in north west for 30 years so have been using the west main line for decades ) and rarely have an issue with capacity of passengers. Granted match days do tend to be a lot busier. Virgin used to run more trains than Arriva are too so there is scope for more trains still.

There are far more urgent projects That need addressing before we need HS2. The cross country route that goes from Manchester -> Birmingham-> Reading -> south coast / Cornwall is an abomination. I’ve regularly had to stand in cramped trains for 3.5h from Reading to Manchester after business meetings. Had seats reserved but train so busy I couldn’t even get to the seat. Warrington to Manchester is horrific transpennine Had dozens of occasion over the years where I’ve had to wait for hours before even being able to get in a train as they are all too full.

Plus HS2 is likely to be a premium cost so if the cost is bad now it’ll be worse on HS2.

As for trees on the line ( suicides are far more regular unfortunately and have the same effect of taking down whole lines for hours ) That affects every route going and unless every line has multiple alternatives which will never happen then it’s always going to be an issue.

Let’s not forget as well, as a cost saving they won’t be going underground for Manchester so a significant raised train line going right through south Manchester will be a bit issue for Manchester going forward.
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Future capacity is what's needed. Extra freight especially is needed.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Future capacity is what's needed. Extra freight especially is needed.
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why add future capacity to a line that currently doens't need it when you could be adding capacity to lines that badly need it now?. the priorities are all wrong.

And if its freight capacity that is needed, why not add dedicated freight lines that dont necessarily need the high speed elements so could go very different and cheaper routes? that take freight off of the passenger lines?

As I say though, I've used this line for 30 odd years. and one observation i'll make is the vast majority of passengers from London->Manchester / London->Liverpool ( and vice versa ) dont get on at London and finish at the termination point. the get on later or off earlier. something HS2 doesn't address. its not the solution to the problem and money that could be getting spent on projects that need it now.
 
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Hopefully the backlash is sufficient to stop this happening, but absolutely appalling if true.

We spent £181 billion on the NHS last year alone, and by contrast HS2 is a piece of vital infrastructure that will benefit the country for decades, which could cost up to £90bn. Less than half of what we will spend on the NHS this year.

I am seriously wondering if the motivation for this is the Tories trying to scrape some cash together to fund tax cuts to try to buy votes in the next GE. I seriously hope not, but I fear it is exactly that.
 
grunge said:
why add future capacity to a line that currently doens't need it when you could be adding capacity to lines that badly need it now?. the priorities are all wrong.

And if its freight capacity that is needed, why not add dedicated freight lines that dont necessarily need the high speed elements so could go very different and cheaper routes? that take freight off of the passenger lines?

As I say though, I've used this line for 30 odd years. and one observation i'll make is the vast majority of passengers from London->Manchester / London->Liverpool dont get on at London and finish at the termination point. the get on later or off earlier. something HS2 doesn't address. its not the solution to the problem and money that could be getting spent on projects that need it now.
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Whether yours are valid points or not, that debate was had before they decided to go ahead with it and your side of the argument lost. I am not saying you're wrong - you may well be right - but what we cannot keep doing is start projects, spend fucking humungous amounts of money, and then cancel the thing pissing all that money down the pan.

This is why I hate governments of every colour. Fucking useless incompetent morons, the lot of them. How much did we piss down the pan on the NHS national program to put all patient records on a dirty great big database? £13bn IIRC and the taxpayer got absolutely fuck all in return because we just binned it having delivered nothing.
 
Kompany Car said:
Technically Crossrail was much more challenging. Tunnelling across parts of London, lots of very complex interfaces to manage etc. HS2 was needlessly made more complicated than was necessary due to the route being designed by committee. Lots of limitations were imposed by politicians due to pressure from voters and nimbys in the home counties so that they didnt lose votes.

The french pretty much draw a line and build the railway we fuck about for ages trying to satisfy every individual.

If they do cancel it, I would hope that the money is ring fenced for the north, as once again we've been short changed after being promised the so called Northern Powerhouse which now seems dead in the water.
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Cancel and give the councils the cash
 
Chippy_boy said:
Whether yours are valid points or not, that debate was had before they decided to go ahead with it and your side of the argument lost. I am not saying you're wrong - you may well be right - but what we cannot keep doing is start projects, spend fucking humungous amounts of money, and then cancel the thing pissing all that money down the pan.

This is why I hate governments of every colour. Fucking useless incompetent morons, the lot of them. How much did we piss down the pan on the NHS national program to put all patient records on a dirty great big database? £13bn IIRC and the taxpayer got absolutely fuck all in return because we just binned it having delivered nothing.
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I very much doubt the public had much, if any, influence at all on the decision ( past voting who got in to power ) so the idea of a winning or losing argument isnt really a thing.

Agreed that abandoning projects is a bad move but then so is cost cutting half way through and changing the goal posts, HS2 in its current form would be horrible for Manchester, In its original form of underground would have been fine.

But yes, my points are pretty moot to be honest based on being against HS2 rather than trying to make it work after pissing billions in the wind already.
 
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