HS2 - Birmingham to Manchester scrapped.

[grunge]

.

HS2 had the capability to free up the overall rail network for another 144 freight trains a day with each train taking 72 hgvs off the road. I genuinely don't get the anti HS2 sentiments at all expecially by people who live in the North.

Where are you getting your figures from? there own site says 300k lorries off the road in 3 years, thats less than 300 a day.

As for other lines, the only way it free's up capacity on other lines is by cutting much used services for sub stations between London/Manchester.

Im Anti HS2 because its totally the wrong solution to any problem. At most it may allow people to commute from the north to London for work which is only a benefit to London. And some capacity on freight, I was reasonably Anti HS2 at the original budget let alone the new doubled up budgets and especially when they decided to cut the budget for the Manchester and not go underground, instead choosing to hammer a raised railway though the south of Manchester.

There were better and cheaper options and far more important projects that needed work.

 

[bluenova]

No, its obvious that the only thing politicians are interested in is their own survival.

If they dont spend the money on HS2 they wont spend it somewhere else that benefits the majority. The money will go to their inheritance tax cut (worth at least 7.2Bn) which plays well to their traditional supporters. Nothing more than a bribe, ensuring that they still retain some seats after the next election.

And of course any change to Inheritance Tax allows them to put out thousands of shady ads on social media about "Labour's Death Tax" - mostly targeted at people who will never pay it.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

Given that these cunts should be gone in 12 months they shouldn’t be allowed to make any decisions bigger than ordering paper clips.

And somehow they’d even manage to fuck that up.

 

[MCFC Wirral]

Lime Street to Victoria is a very quick service in comparison to the one that stops about twenty times to Oxford Road / Piccadilly. I think it’s the Newcastle train.

More equivalents would be very welcome here.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

Lime Street to Victoria is a very quick service in comparison to the one that stops about twenty times to Oxford Road / Piccadilly. I think it’s the Newcastle train.

More equivalents would be very welcome here.

The biggest cost was the construction of anti-jibbing barriers to accommodate our Merseyside cousins.

 

[tommybooth]

Looking forward to battery planes. Couple of mates work on this white elephant. All the contractors are ripping the arse out of the tax payers. They havent laid any track as the first stage is to build roads to allow access. If it is ever finished they will spend two years testing it before it goes live.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

.


Where are you getting your figures from? there own site says 300k lorries off the road in 3 years, thats less than 300 a day.

As for other lines, the only way it free's up capacity on other lines is by cutting much used services for sub stations between London/Manchester.

Im Anti HS2 because its totally the wrong solution to any problem. At most it may allow people to commute from the north to London for work which is only a benefit to London. And some capacity on freight, I was reasonably Anti HS2 at the original budget let alone the new doubled up budgets and especially when they decided to cut the budget for the Manchester and not go underground, instead choosing to hammer a raised railway though the south of Manchester.

There were better and cheaper options and far more important projects that needed work.

Google and you will find the figures I posted easily enough.

What are these projects that we need instead? And secondly realistically what do you think will be offered money wise to the north instead of HS2 .

I tell you what money will be offered, the thick end of F all.

The government wont even commit to extending the tram system to Stockport at a cost of £0.5 to £1.0B.

 

[searsleftpeg]

Wonder if a Roll on ,Roll off train for HGVs would have been an option, as it would not have needed to built in a straight line plus freeing up motorway space. There may well be many technical problems I dont realise, but it seems a simpler option to me.
If they are serious about "leveling up" , how about moving The Lords and Commons up here .I'm sure many towns and cities would find suitable space for them.

 

[dickie davies]

HS2 had the capability to free up the overall rail network for another 144 freight trains a day with each train taking 72 hgvs off the road. I genuinely don't get the anti HS2 sentiments at all expecially by people who live in the North.

That’s bollocks mate. Think about it
Where are these HGV’s going? They’re not all going to Euston or Piccadilly, so they have to be loaded and unloaded somewhere and when unloaded then carried again by lorry
London to Manchester is, in the grand scheme of things, only a short distance
if you’re transporting containers across Europe or the USA then freight becomes far more cost effective to ship via rail
If I have a container of goods that I want to ship from Trafford Park to Dartford, it’ll cost about £1000
If I had to ship it to a local depot where it would be unloaded, then stored, loaded onto a train, transported south, unloaded again, loaded onto another truck and then delivered to its destination, the cost will have more than doubled and so will the journey time

 

[Brewster's millions]

pretty much.
Of course, anything they say at the moment about future spending is meaningless as it's extremely unlikely that they'll be in power.

It’s also extremely unlikely that a Labour government would restart HS2 if it’s cancelled in the next few months, so what happens now does actually matter.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It’s also extremely unlikely that a Labour government would restart HS2 if it’s cancelled in the next few months, so what happens now does actually matter.

Not sure of the relevance of what Labour would/wouldn't do, but it seems right to me - it'll be over a year before they have a chance anyway. Everything will be left to rot before being sold on to housebuilders at knockdown price - that prime site next to Euston must be worth a fortune.

It's rank incompetence to have this fester away for days and not have an answer to at least make it a non-story.

 

[staffsblue]

That’s bollocks mate. Think about it
Where are these HGV’s going? They’re not all going to Euston or Piccadilly, so they have to be loaded and unloaded somewhere and when unloaded then carried again by lorry
London to Manchester is, in the grand scheme of things, only a short distance
if you’re transporting containers across Europe or the USA then freight becomes far more cost effective to ship via rail
If I have a container of goods that I want to ship from Trafford Park to Dartford, it’ll cost about £1000
If I had to ship it to a local depot where it would be unloaded, then stored, loaded onto a train, transported south, unloaded again, loaded onto another truck and then delivered to its destination, the cost will have more than doubled and so will the journey time

The majority of containerised freight comes through the deep sea ports at Felixstowe, Tilbury and Southampton, and operate to various locations including the Freightliner terminal at Trafford Park. These containers contain all the crap people buy online and mainly originate in China. The containers then return mainly empty back to China. These make use of the West Coast Mainline all the way from Camden (for Felixstowe and Tilbury traffic) and Nuneaton for trains from Southampton.
There's also a bit of traffic that passes through the Channel Tunnel, joining the WCML at Wembley, which includes all manner of traffic including exported cars from Halewood and imported cars from Spain, France, Germany and Italy.
There's also bits of containerised supermarket goods being transported from the hub in Daventry up to various locations in Scotland.
The paths available for all these freight trains are extremely limited, as the "slow lines" are full of inner and outer suburban passenger trains during the day, so the majority have to operate during the night.
The purpose of HS2 is to shift more suburban passenger trains to the "fast lines" to run more freight trains during the day on the "slow lines". This in turn is meant to shift the use of multiple HGVs off the M6 and M40.
You may ask why the existing line can't just be made "six track" throughout, but the engineering and compulsory purchase costs exceeded building a new two track railway.

 

[grunge]

Google and you will find the figures I posted easily enough.

What are these projects that we need instead? And secondly realistically what do you think will be offered money wise to the north instead of HS2 .

I tell you what money will be offered, the thick end of F all.

The government wont even commit to extending the tram system to Stockport at a cost of £0.5 to £1.0B.

I have googled and not seen what you quoted hence asking, its how I got the 300k trucks a day figure from the HS2 site.

what projects need it? The line between Liverpool -> Manchester -> Leeds -> Newcastle for one. Actually start to make that northern power house they keep talking about.

The cross country line from Manchester down the the south coast for another, its a horrific line that is always majorly congested.

Dedicated freight transport lines removing the freight from passenger lines? they dont need to be high speed and can be though less problematic and cheaper areas to buy up.

You could probably do all 3 for the price's being quoted for HS2.

Will they fund it? No. but thats not what is being asked. the question is what could the money have been better spent on.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

That’s bollocks mate. Think about it
Where are these HGV’s going? They’re not all going to Euston or Piccadilly, so they have to be loaded and unloaded somewhere and when unloaded then carried again by lorry
London to Manchester is, in the grand scheme of things, only a short distance
if you’re transporting containers across Europe or the USA then freight becomes far more cost effective to ship via rail
If I have a container of goods that I want to ship from Trafford Park to Dartford, it’ll cost about £1000
If I had to ship it to a local depot where it would be unloaded, then stored, loaded onto a train, transported south, unloaded again, loaded onto another truck and then delivered to its destination, the cost will have more than doubled and so will the journey time

Just quoting what's been projected by detailed studies and analysis.

Google it yourself. It's a study produced in 2020 produced by Logistics UK Ltd. A Subsidary of the Freight Transport Association. Its titled: HS2 The Case for Increased Freight Capacity.

Don't shoot the messenger !

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I have googled and not seen what you quoted hence asking, its how I got the 300k trucks a day figure from the HS2 site.

what projects need it? The line between Liverpool -> Manchester -> Leeds -> Newcastle for one. Actually start to make that northern power house they keep talking about.

The cross country line from Manchester down the the south coast for another, its a horrific line that is always majorly congested.

Dedicated freight transport lines removing the freight from passenger lines? they dont need to be high speed and can be though less problematic and cheaper areas to buy up.

You could probably do all 3 for the price's being quoted for HS2.

Will they fund it? No. but thats not what is being asked. the question is what could the money have been better spent on.

I posted the details of the paper above.


That's what I asked? what funding?

With all due respect. Your suggestions are more pie in the sky than HS2. Not one will be funded!

 

[grunge]

Just quoting what's been projected by detailed studies and analysis.

Google it yourself. It's a study produced in 2020 produced by Logistics UK Ltd. A Subsidary of the Freight Transport Association. Its titled: HS2 The Case for Increased Freight Capacity.

Don't shoot the messenger !

So you pretty much googled to find out what to google but couldn't post the link. OK then.

for those that want it.

https://logistics.org.uk/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=26280145-1894-452e-8f18-7193fc0a5646&lang=en-GB

Edit: so the article in question, "High Speed 2 (HS2) will present opportunities for freight on the existingrail network." However HS2 wont free up much if any existing capacity without major routes being hit and passenger journey's being disutped in a massive way.

Also, it quotes some other sources for there figures without actually showing how exactly that capacity would work in terms of existing services.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Lime Street to Victoria is a very quick service in comparison to the one that stops about twenty times to Oxford Road / Piccadilly. I think it’s the Newcastle train.

More equivalents would be very welcome here.

The line was significantly upgraded and electrified a few years ago as part of the promise of an express line from Liverpool to Hull. Ordsall chord was built as part of that plan. Yet one passenger train per hour goes over it when it was built to take more to help spread the work between Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[grunge]

I posted the details of the paper above.


That's what I asked? what funding?

With all due respect. Your suggestions are more pie in the sky than HS2. Not one will be funded!

the question was what projects could the money have been spent on. I answered. if they are pie in the sky then so be it, they are still things that need to be done, and that the money could have been spent on them if the Gov chose too.

HS2 is a massive money sink hole that should never have been authorised in the 1st place as it doesn't answer the problems that need addressing. At best its a sticking plaster on the bigger issues and adds long distance commuter capacity that isn't needed.

 

[East Level 2]

The line was significantly upgraded and electrified a few years ago as part of the promise of an express line from Liverpool to Hull. Ordsall chord was built as part of that plan. Yet one passenger train per hour goes over it when it was built to take more to help spread the work between Piccadilly and Victoria.

Isn't part of the problem that the route from Picc to the Ordsall chord (via Oxford Road and Deansgate) remained as two tracks rather than be extended to four as originally planned? Or am I thinking of a different bit of track?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

the question was what projects could the money have been spent on. I answered. if they are pie in the sky then so be it, they are still things that need to be done, and that the money could have been spent on them if the Gov chose too.

HS2 is a massive money sink hole that should never have been authorised in the 1st place as it doesn't answer the problems that need addressing. At best its a sticking plaster on the bigger issues and adds long distance commuter capacity that isn't needed.

We shall have to dissagree to dissagree.

Did you look at the freight case paper?