Middle East Conflict

[BlueAnorak]

Israeli Ministers only this year have called for Palestinian towns to be erased and denied the existence of Palestinian people.

Classic whataboutary.
Isreal has it's loons too but they keep being proven right time and time again.
Isreal being a democracy would probably put them back in their box if they could see REAL steps where being taken to gain TRUST.
It never happens.

 

[The blue phantom]

Classic whataboutary

But also fact which is always selectively ignored.

 

[trueblue1972]

You know the answer to that.
To Hamas the only good jew is a dead one.

But he avoided answering. He doesn't have an agenda honest

 

[Blue Llama]

The bottom line is you either support Isreal in at least it's 1948 boundaries or you probably support the continuation of Hitler's final solution.
In reality, there is no middle ground.

What absolute bollox.

 

[SWP's back]

There are hardliners on both sides. As a previous poster has highlighted Israel once encouraged the rise of Hamas.

You've seen the way that people like MCFC Israel talk about Palestinians and the way Israeli politicians talk about them.

There's no appetite from the Zionists to share their toys either.

Israel hasn't been trying to negotiate with Fatah either have they?

Define Zionist as you mean it.

 

[The blue phantom]

But he avoided answering. He doesn't have an agenda honest

I answer every single post on here, the one that was asked I've answered a dozen times. Unfortunately some seem to be cool about what the Israelis have done for 50 years.

 

[trueblue1972]

I answer every single post on here, the one that was asked I've answered a dozen times. Unfortunately some seem to be cool about what the Israelis have done for 50 years.

So for clarification do you belive if the stolen land was handed back, Isreal would be left in peace

 

[domalino]

Classic whataboutary.
Isreal has it's loons too but they keep being proven right time and time again.
Isreal being a democracy would probably put them back in their box if they could see REAL steps where being taken to gain TRUST.
It never happens.

Have you seen what Netenyahu has been up to recently? Israel's democracy is not a given any more.

 

[manclad]

I remember watching a documentary on this conflict. It must be at least thirty years ago, maybe more now. Yet another peace deal was trying to be brokered or something. They were interviewing a Palestinian leader and the interviewer asked what would satisfy them and bring about peace to the region. He answered no peace until every Jew is eradicated. I thought then it's fucked, you can't negotiate with that mindset. I was right.

When Channel 4 News first started in 1982 , it always started each daily programme with images of the IDF bombarding Beirut and The Bekaa Valley as they were in conflict with the PLO at the time. And that was over 40 years ago.
And my earliest recollection of any war , was watching tanks and troops storming through the deserts of The Middle East, in black and white on the TV we had at the time.
That was The Six Day War in 1967, I was 11 years old at the time.
So as others have already mentioned, this ongoing conflict has been going on for most of our lifetimes.

 

[The blue phantom]

So for clarification do you belive if the stolen land was handed back, Isreal would be left in peace

I'd like to think the land given back and total withdrawal of occupation will see it peaceful. You'll then post but Hamas want to erase Israel off the Map. Too which I will then refer you to my post about Israeli Ministers thinking likewise. The circle continues.

 

[trueblue1972]

I'd like to think the land given back and total withdrawal of occupation will see it peaceful. You'll then post but Hamas want to erase Israel off the Map. Too which I will then refer you to my post about Israeli Ministers thinking likewise. The circle continues.

You would LIKE to think , but you actually KNOW it won't, it never has since the creation of Isreal

 

[The blue phantom]

You would LIKE to think , but you actually KNOW it won't, it never has since the creation of Isreal

But you've been using terriost attacks on the Palestinians for nearly 60 years.

 

[domalino]

So for clarification do you belive if the stolen land was handed back, Isreal would be left in peace

IMO you're going about this from the wrong direction.

Any people who think their land is being taken away, who can barely afford to eat because of sanctions and blockades, who see the armed soldiers of another country on their streets, who feel they're being oppressed and occupied is going to have popular support for militant insurgency. Doesn't matter if it's Palestine or Peru. There's hundreds of examples through history, but we dont' even need to look back that far to our own forays into the middle east.

So if we're ever going to have 2 state peace, Palestinians (and Israeli's!!) need to be able to thrive economically, feel that their borders are secure long term and they're safe. Do that, and the support of violence will disappear and moderates will emerge and take over.


So no, obviously just handing land back won't immediately solve the problem, but if you want to end the violence with 2 states then handing back land is going to have to happen.

For the last 15 years, that's been off the table, so peace has been off the table.

 

[The blue phantom]

IMO you're going about this from the wrong direction.

Any people who think their land is being taken away, who can barely afford to eat because of sanctions and blockades, who see the armed soldiers of another country on their streets, who feel they're being oppressed and occupied is going to have popular support for militant insurgency. Doesn't matter if it's Palestine or Peru.

So if we're ever going to have 2 state peace, Palestinians need to be able to thrive economically, feel that their borders are secure long term and they're safe. Do that, and the support of violence will disappear and moderates will emerge and take over.

So no, obviously just handing land back won't immediately solve the problem, but if you want to end the violence with 2 states then handing back land is going to have to happen.

For the last 15 years, that's been off the table, so peace has been off the table.

So much better put forward than me.

 

[robbieh]

The hard truth is Hamas need Netanyahu and he needs them. Every time they commit an outrage he reacts. Every time land is stolen Hamas react. The bereaved civilians blame the other side.
Arafat and Shimon Peres seems a long time ago.

 

[SWP's back]

One million children are caged in Gaza and have only ever known Israeli brutality. Their life is going to get a whole lot worse if that's even possible due to their grim existence. All power cut off, Food supply's gone and financial support being withdrawn from lots of countries.

Yeah really clever play by Hamas this wasn’t it.

 

[trueblue1972]

IMO you're going about this from the wrong direction.

Any people who think their land is being taken away, who can barely afford to eat because of sanctions and blockades, who see the armed soldiers of another country on their streets, who feel they're being oppressed and occupied is going to have popular support for militant insurgency. Doesn't matter if it's Palestine or Peru. There's hundreds of examples through history, but we dont' even need to look back that far to our own forays into the middle east.

So if we're ever going to have 2 state peace, Palestinians (and Israeli's!!) need to be able to thrive economically, feel that their borders are secure long term and they're safe. Do that, and the support of violence will disappear and moderates will emerge and take over.


So no, obviously just handing land back won't immediately solve the problem, but if you want to end the violence with 2 states then handing back land is going to have to happen.

For the last 15 years, that's been off the table, so peace has been off the table.

Whilst i dont agree with many of the isreali governments actions you can also look at that the other way round they have been under constant attack since its creation and have been protecting themselves , have they made mistakes along the way 100% however that doesn't take away from.the route cause.
I've lived there its a shit show from both sides

 

[domalino]

Haaretz editorial (unsurprisingly) sticking it to Netanyahu. The opening sentence makes that abundantly clear

‘The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu.‘

The fallout from Netanyahu’s war with the judiciary and security organisations also getting the blame as well as Netanyahu ignoring what warnings the Govt did receive - dismissing them as ‘politically motivated’.

God knows what Hamas was thinking with this attack. It doesn’t serve their people, it unites Israel, and Gaza will likely cease to exist. No country is going to tolerate an attack on this scale and the murder of its civilians.

The Saudi’s and others looking to normalise relations with Israel will probably put the move on ice for a while, but will be governed by their own interests in the long run and proceed with normalisation.

All in all, a depressingly familiar chapter in Middle East politics.

Like you say it's not surprising.

Remember there's no internet or telecomms in Gaza that's not Israeli. You can't google anything or text anyone without the Israeli Intelligence agencies seeing it.

So for an attack to happen on this scale - 22 simultaneous attacks, Air, Sea and Land, massive hostage taking - this has been planned for probably over a year, and you can't do that without using electronic communicaiton which means it slipped through the net probably hundreds of times.

Then there's the HUMINT side of things...people on the ground, informers etc. These attacks involved hundreds if not thousands of people in HAMAS. How could they not have any sources?

IIRC The USA recently warned Israel that the situation in Gaza and the West Bank was getting out of control and combined with their own constitutional crisis and upheaval they were risking something big happening.


I suppose there's only 2 outcomes. 1) People rally behind the flag and just allow the right wing takeover that's been resisted in Israel for the last few years. 2) People blame Netenyahu's corruption and attempts to make himself a quasi-dictator for the attack and he's booted out as soon as the dust settles.

WHich one of those happens probably depends a lot on the outcome of the hostage situation, which could take years to sort out.

 

[trueblue1972]

But you've been using terriost attacks on the Palestinians for nearly 60 years.

View attachment 95565

Are you claiming protecting yourself in war as a terrorist attack ?

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Did anyone read that the taliban have asked Iran for right of way so they can attack Israel. This will turn into a massive religious war

What crackpot internet conspiracy nonsense shit stirring bollocks website did you read that rubbish on?