Middle East Conflict

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

A little look into the Koran would answer that question for you !

There's no doubt that anti-semitism is presently rife in the Muslim world, as evidenced by the opening paragraph of Chapter 13 of Ed Husain's acclaimed book The House of Islam: A Global History. However, as the author goes on to explain, this has not always been the case. The chapter as a whole is too long to post here but after providing a historical overview of Muslim-Jewish relations, Husain provides a robust defence of the virtues of the modern state of Israel (though one that is curiously based on an appeal to its economic vibrancy and dynamism).



However, it was the Qur'an that you mentioned. So let's cover that as well. The following is an extract from CTR Hewer's Understanding Islam: The First Ten Steps. It's a less well known but excellent introduction to the faith and Hewer covers plenty of ground in a few short paragraphs. Accordingly, here they are:







Of course, there are anti-Semitic hadiths as well. But those are dealt with in Jonathan AC Brown's Misquoting Muhammad. Been a long time since I read his book but, from failing memory, like the one about the 72 virgins, the chain of transmission or isnad is weak in each instance.

Lastly, in his brief but estimable survey Islamic History: A Very Short Introduction, Adam Silverstein has this to say:

'...the anti-Semitic theories that are widely espoused by Muslims aiming to reverse the effects of colonialism and imperialism (for which, according to these theories, the Jews are responsible), are themselves Western imperialist products - Muslim societies had nothing like them until [Christian] Arabs imported the ideas from Europe to Muslim lands in the 19th centuries.'

 

[Ducado]

Iran isn’t Russia’s puppet. If anything, Russia needs Iran more than Iran needs Russia. Iran acts in what it sees its own interests. As for Hezbolla getting involved it is likely more by default than anything else.

The issue is less shadowy puppet masters controlling events, but more people making it up as they go along and acting on emotion with no thought for the future, and that is way more dangerous than any puppet masters.

The Israeli‘s level Gaza then what happens? The Israeli’s can’t leave Hamas in control and don’t want to administer an area of 2 million people. It was until a week ago Israeli policy to let Hamas have control as Hamas would never accept a compromise or two state solution and that suited Netanyahu just fine. Now he is facing the biggest Israeli security lapse in living memory and his Gaza policy shredded.

As you said earlier unless underlying issues are addressed we will keep playing this situation on a bloody loop, but with Hamas on one side and Netanyahu on the other there is no pragmatic way forward that I can see. Even if both disappear there is a good chance they will be replaced by people with similar attitudes given the death and destruction all around them.

Perhaps puppet may be the wrong word, but it is in both countries mutual interest to distract or drag the US in to a Mid East conflagration, as we know they are easy to start but very hard to stop

What is clear is, the status que can not be maintained, Israel for all it's military capacity can not fight an unending urban war in Gaza the loss of life would be too much, and without flattening the whole place they are going to have too if they want to achieve their objectives the prospect of 100.000s of dead civilians in Gaza, makes even the most blood thirsty stop and think

If there is anything good to come out of this, it could be to make everyone sit up and listen, there will be no peace with a fair and equitable solution there are only three options

1) Israel returns to it's pre 67 borders and a Palestinian state can be created
2) The same as above but with some land swaps
3) All Palestinians are given citizenship of Israel

1 & 3 are not going to happen so it has to be 2, and both sides need to compromise like the Palestinians dropping the right to return demand and perhaps even Jerusalem as their capitol

 

[dublinblue12]

How are all these missiles getting through now, did they take down something when they were initially overrun? A mate sent footage from Tel Aviv a few months ago from his hotel and as soon as the missile is launched it's almost immediately destroyed by the Israeli defence systems

 

[CTID1988]

Never thought I would see the day when people are out on the streets of the UK celebrating a terror attack with complete impunity. Madness

 

[trueblue1972]

How are all these missiles getting through now, did they take down something when they were initially overrun? I had a mate send footage from Tel Aviv a few months ago and as soon as the missile is launched it's almost immediately destroyed by the Israeli defence systems

The Iron dome is roughly 95% efficient

 

[MouldensChippy]

There's no doubt that anti-semitism is presently rife in the Muslim world, as evidenced by the opening paragraph of Chapter 13 of Ed Husain's acclaimed book The House of Islam: A Global History. However, as the author goes on to explain, this has not always been the case. The chapter as a whole is too long to post here but after providing a historical overview of Muslim-Jewish relations, Husain provides a robust defence of the virtues of the modern state of Israel (though one that is curiously based on an appeal to its economic vibrancy and dynamism).

View attachment 95687

However, it was the Qur'an that you mentioned. So let's cover that as well. The following is an extract from CTR Hewer's Understanding Islam: The First Ten Steps. It's a less well known but excellent introduction to the faith and Hewer covers plenty of ground in a few short paragraphs. Accordingly, here they are:

View attachment 95688

View attachment 95689

View attachment 95690

Of course, there are anti-Semitic hadiths as well. But those are dealt with in Jonathan AC Brown's Misquoting Muhammad. Been a long time since I read his book but, from failing memory, like the one about the 72 virgins, the chain of transmission or isnad is weak in each instance.

Lastly, in his brief but estimable survey Islamic History: A Very Short Introduction, Adam Silverstein has this to say:

'...the anti-Semitic theories that are widely espoused by Muslims aiming to reverse the effects of colonialism and imperialism (for which, according to these theories, the Jews are responsible), are themselves Western imperialist products - Muslim societies had nothing like them until [Christian] Arabs imported the ideas from Europe to Muslim lands in the 19th centuries.'

And yet, they are still there, and even quoted in Hamas charters.
BTW, I can't in all honesty take ED Husain (former Islamist, and now money maker off the back of it seriously)

The others have their own drums to beat, as all of the apologists do.

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

How are all these missiles getting through now, did they take down something when they were initially overrun? I had a mate send footage from Tel Aviv a few months ago and as soon as the missile is launched it's almost immediately destroyed by the Israeli defence systems

If you launch a lot of them at the same time it can overwhelm the Iron Dome System. It will take some out but not all of them, Hezbollah have Iranian made rockets that are much more advanced than what Hamas has. The worry is if this opens up on two fronts they could stretch the air defence systems even further.

 

[blueinsa]

The Iron dome is roughly 95% efficient

I’d wager it’s having to deal with a volume of missiles that it was probably never designed for or was felt would ever likely see as well.

 

[trueblue1972]

I’d wager it’s having to deal with a volume of missiles that it was probably never designed for or was felt would ever likely see as well.

I'd imagine it's probably running at a lower rate currently, srill amazing peice of technology

 

[blueinsa]

I'd imagine it's probably running at a lower rate currently, srill amazing peice of technology

Incredible technology.

 

[MouldensChippy]

How are all these missiles getting through now, did they take down something when they were initially overrun? A mate sent footage from Tel Aviv a few months ago from his hotel and as soon as the missile is launched it's almost immediately destroyed by the Israeli defence systems

Iron Dome was hacked just before the attack apparently.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

 

[trueblue1972]

Iron Dome was hacked just before the attack apparently.

I'm not so sure about that. I'd expect aot more missiles to have landed , but who knows

 

[Mon Autre]

And thats seemingly being ignored by some posters. They’re spending most of their time trying debunk a soldiers story that babies have been beheaded… whether or not that’s true. Theres clear evidence families and babies have been brutally killed.

The main focus for some seems to be proving the story is a lie. Why is that the main focus? It’s bizarre.

Sorry but if someone thought it was important enough to make it up and then several news sources and politicians thought it was important enough to repeat, then surely it's important enough to debunk it if it isn't true? There's enough brutality to have to try (and fail) to make sense of here. But it's quite clear that a campaign of disinformation is taking place alongside that which appears designed to create the impression that the Palestinian people (50% of whom are children), are barbaric, and that it'll be no great loss to see the place razed to the ground.

 

[trueblue1972]

Sorry but if someone thought it was important enough to make it up and then several news sources and politicians thought it was important enough to repeat, then surely it's important enough to debunk it if it isn't true? There's enough brutality to have to try (and fail) to make sense of here. But it's quite clear that a campaign of disinformation is taking place alongside that which appears designed to create the impression that the Palestinian people (50% of whom are children), are barbaric, and that it'll be no great loss to see the place razed to the ground.

Who has eluded to the fact all Palestinians are barbaric ? Hammas are barbaric , they don't even care about the civilians they govern

 

[mexico1970]

And thats seemingly being ignored by some posters. They’re spending most of their time trying debunk a soldiers story that babies have been beheaded… whether or not that’s true. Theres clear evidence families and babies have been brutally killed.

The main focus for some seems to be proving the story is a lie. Why is that the main focus? It’s bizarre.

It's not bizarre if you read between the lines mate, everyone wants a solution to this problem/issue/clusterfuck but it isn't happening any century soon.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Sorry but if someone thought it was important enough to make it up and then several news sources and politicians thought it was important enough to repeat, then surely it's important enough to debunk it if it isn't true? There's enough brutality to have to try (and fail) to make sense of here. But it's quite clear that a campaign of disinformation is taking place alongside that which appears designed to create the impression that the Palestinian people (50% of whom are children), are barbaric, and that it'll be no great loss to see the place razed to the ground.

Of course it’s important to correct things which aren’t true, but it’s all some posters seem to be focused on. There’s clear evidence of babies/innocents being killed, I was already outraged just hearing that.

The bit I’ve highlighted in bold - no one in their right mind is thinking that. The focus is on Hamas, who have shown that they are 100% barbaric and evil. I’d say 99% of people aren’t blaming Palestinian people at all and if your watching a video about babies being executed the anger is at hamas/ the people carrying out such atrocities.

 

[SWP's back]

Feel free to point out exactly where I’ve re-written history in any of my previous posts PB. Your version of historic events isn’t much different to mine, but something you will most likely consider a Palestinian perspective.

- From 1517 to 1917 Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire where Christians, Muslims and Jews lived in relative harmony for the most part
- In the late 1800’s/early 1900’s the Zionist movement was founded and led by Theodore Herzi with the plan of creating a Jewish homeland
- At this time the Jewish population of Palestine was around 8% and Arab nationalism was on the rise and many Palestinians wanted an independent state
- Imperial Britain knew of both the Palestinian and Zionist ambitions and used this to bolster their own interests
- In 1914 during world war 1, Britain went to war with the Ottomans
- In 1915 Henry McMohan went to the Arabs with a proposal to fight against the Ottomans in return for independence
- In 1917 The Balfour declaration was created after he wrote a letter to Walter Rothschild stating the British govt were in favour of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine and nothing would be done to prejudice the civil or religious rights of the existing population.
- This declaration was in stark contrast as to what the British and French armies had promised Iraq, Syria and Palestine in 1918
- So Britain had promised that independence to the Arabs in Palestine, while also promising the same inhabited land to the Jews
- When the Ottomans lost control in 1918, the League of Nations gave Britain a dual mandate of Palestine.
- On one hand they were to act on behalf of Palestinians and on the other to act on behalf of the international Jewish community who wanted to establish a homeland
- Britain drew up arbitrary borders and during this time Jewish folk from Europe began immigrating and buying up land
- The Jewish population rose from 60,000 to 600,000 by 1947
- Many Palestinians saw this mass influx as a European colonial movement and as expected this would lead to conflict
- In 1929 there were clashes at the wailing wall leading to a number of deaths on both sides
- In 1936 the clashes got worse as immigration increased
- During the riots at least 2000 Palestinians were killed by the British army
- A British commission concluded that because of the mass immigration the two groups couldn’t be reconciled and recommended a partition of the land
- The Arab higher commission rejected this and claimed all the land belonged to them. Britain in return banned them
- In 1939 the British proposed a bi-national state and limiting Jewish immigration for 5 years
- Immigration still continued on mass however (Yes we all know what happened in world war 2) as a result more violence erupted. After creating the mess in the first place by giving land promised to the inhabitants to another group of people Britain decided to hand over to the UN in 1948, whom decided to partition the land.
- Once the British army left, it emboldened the Zionist movement and the Arabs from neighbouring countries and from 1948 until today we have seen entire villages wiped out, Over 700,000 Palestinians expelled from their own land, countless state sponsored atrocities committed by the IDF, settlers free to brutalise Palestinians, apartheid imposed on the indigenous population and a slow and systematic ethnic cleansing unfold before our very eyes.

Just on that last sentence, are there not more Palestinian’s now alive than at any other point in their history? (Well before this latest round of Israeli air strikes)

If so, then is it correct to say they’ve been ethnically cleansed?

 

[BobKowalski]

Perhaps puppet may be the wrong word, but it is in both countries mutual interest to distract or drag the US in to a Mid East conflagration, as we know they are easy to start but very hard to stop

What is clear is, the status que can not be maintained, Israel for all it's military capacity can not fight an unending urban war in Gaza the loss of life would be too much, and without flattening the whole place they are going to have too if they want to achieve their objectives the prospect of 100.000s of dead civilians in Gaza, makes even the most blood thirsty stop and think

If there is anything good to come out of this, it could be to make everyone sit up and listen, there will be no peace with a fair and equitable solution there are only three options

1) Israel returns to it's pre 67 borders and a Palestinian state can be created
2) The same as above but with some land swaps
3) All Palestinians are given citizenship of Israel

1 & 3 are not going to happen so it has to be 2, and both sides need to compromise like the Palestinians dropping the right to return demand and perhaps even Jerusalem as their capitol

True, but the problem with instigating chaos is that it can backfire. Israel has sided more with Russia, than Ukraine, so anything that pushes Israel into the Ukraine camp could see the US linking aid to both as part of the same conflict which in turn puts the GOP on the spot. Russia needs Iranian Shahed drones, so that’s Iranian drones/weapons attacking both Israel and Ukraine.

I hope something like your option two can come to fruition, but it will take different leadership on both sides to even take the first steps. Still, someone has to start somewhere because the current shitshow ain’t working

 

[SWP's back]

Can’t argue with that.