Middle East Conflict

Pelegrinni said:
Gaza would have really flourished if only they had good leaders.
I recall before the first intifada, there was no wall between Israel and Gaza. People traveled freely to work in Israel and returned home to their families living in Gaza.
All that changed when Arafat rejected the two-state peace proposal in 2000 and launched the intifada. Gaza has been going downhill ever since.
Sad.
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Arafat signing Israel’s deal would have signed his death warrant (That the IDF sorted anyway).

Why did Israel not concede the 2% of traditionally Palestinian land that scuppered the deal.

I think it was down to religious sites IIRC that were important to Israelites and Palestinians: Neither party gave up on their red lines so why highlight Arafat?
 
Oh lovely Hezbolah has joined in on the Lebanon front by attacking Isreal. Missiles, Drones, possibly paragliding murderers too.
news.sky.com

Gaza strikes latest: Israel continuing strikes on Gaza as tanks at border - after 'hundreds killed' in attacks

Israel has launched dozens of airstrikes across Gaza after ceasefire talks stalled, ending a fragile truce that began in January. At least 400 people have been killed, according to Hamas officials in the enclave. This live page has closed for the day.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
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Tim of the Oak said:
The reason Israel’s response may appear muted to some posters might be because they were caught so unaware by the terrorists. Not just the attacks on the rave and villages but also by the tank busting kit Hams had access to. Piling straight into Gaza without a thorough and up to date assessment of the terrorists” capability could have proven a graveyard for many more Israeli soldiers, especially given the layout of Gaza.

It’s far safer for Israeli forces to be bombing Gaza from the skies until the Israeli army are ready to invade Gaza and they have a robust intelligence assessment of what awaits them. It’s not a charitable decision.
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I wasn’t suggesting it was charitable, merely measured.

As you said, they can bomb from the air with relative impunity, yet even then it had been highly targeted, as opposed to a “shock and awe” statement.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
When did I say Israel had to provide the food and water.

It was reported that Israel was bombing people trying to leave Gaza, I think to Egypt. Hopefully this wasn’t true but it will contribute to a humanitarian catastrophe if that’s happening. I thought Netanyahu had told Gazans to leave.
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Any refugees that leave are blocked from a right to return too.
 
Tugay One Cup said:
Oh, please. The IDF have been targeting civilian sites for decades and have never given a shit about those casualties because they faced zero repercussions.

And, no, this isn't a defence of anything Hamas has done but it is disingenuous to act like Israel have at any point been legitimately considerate of the lives of Palestinian citizens.
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A strong defence often requires a targeted offence. I make no excuses for Israel’s determined self-defence.
 
Whilst understanding Israel's response this is not war against Hamas its revenge on Gaza. Let's not kid ourselves.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
I wasn’t suggesting it was charitable, merely measured.

As you said, they can bomb from the air with relative impunity, yet even then it had been highly targeted, as opposed to a “shock and awe” statement.
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I am an admirer of the ruthless efficiency of the IDF (over many years). It’s the political leadership that I dislike and how people on both sides are brought up to despise each other.

The intelligence failings came as a big shock and Israel can’t rely on their contacts in Gaza atm. That’s why I think Israel continues to strike Hamas to deplete (as much as they can from the air) opposition forces / terrorists before the inevitable invasion.
 
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Tim of the Oak said:
When did I say Israel had to provide the food and water.

It was reported that Israel was bombing people trying to leave Gaza, I think to Egypt. Hopefully this wasn’t true but it will contribute to a humanitarian catastrophe if that’s happening. I thought Netanyahu had told Gazans to leave.
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I saw the footage. It looked like they were targeting the tunnels.
Not sure if you saw it but the bomb created a huge crater on the ground.
 
SWP's back said:
Solution is to not cut off food, water and aid to civilians as per the Geneva Convention with it being a war crime.

Build as many strawmen as you want, I’m not dignifying such idiocy with a rebuttal, suffice to say I’ve forgotten more about WW2 than you’ll ever know.
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Speaking of strawmen…!

You spoke of Hamas beheading children then said both sides were cunts, without specifying why Israelis were. I simply highlighted that decisive, often damaging, actions are taken on both sides of a conflict, but to give them false equivalence ignores the reality.

You answered with your usual “aplomb.” It must be hard carrying the weight of that head around. Does it wobble? It should.

Not dignifying idiocy with a response? Impossible, given your post count!

Carry on.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It could stop blockading them by sea in that case.

Gaza doesn't have its own drinkable water reservoirs or desalination plant.
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Sadly, that's not Israel's problem.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza.
It is their responsibility to provide these amenities that you mentioned.
 
trueblue1972 said:
Egypt have recently agreed to supply aid but refuse to take refugees
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Yep, I’m saying part of the reason they won’t take refugees is Israel refuses their right to return so they’re effectively displaced forever.

So any civilians that do want to get out of Gaza effectively can’t and even if they did they could never go back.
 
Pelegrinni said:
Sadly, that's not Israel's problem.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza.
It is their responsibility to provide these amenities that you mentioned.
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I'm sure if Hammas handed the hostages and themselves over, aid would be allowed in straight away and more
 
Pelegrinni said:
Hamas don't do elections.
They butchered the Fatah members living in Gaza immediately they came to power and the rest is now history.
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So they are elected in the sense that Hitler was elected. Thanks for the confirmation. I'm guessing you've been binge watching Ben Shapiro.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
I am an admirer of the ruthless efficiency of the IDF (over many years). It’s the political leadership that I dislike and how peephole on both sides are brought up to despise each other.

The intelligence failings came as a big shock and Israel can’t rely on their contacts in Gaza atm. That’s why I think Israel continues to strike Hamas to deplete (as much as they can from the air) opposition forces / terrorists before the inevitable invasion.
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Agreed on both counts.

Netanyahu is an acquired taste I can’t stomach, but his zeal for revenge may elevate him above his troubles in the near term.

As for raiding future fighters who despise the enemy, it is a common theme in protracted generational conflicts. The fact that the perpetrators of that hate can use their religion to justify actions only serves to exacerbate and fuel the discord.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Arafat signing Israel’s deal would have signed his death warrant (That the IDF sorted anyway).

Why did Israel not concede the 2% of traditionally Palestinian land that scuppered the deal.

I think it was down to religious sites IIRC that were important to Israelites and Palestinians: Neither party gave up on their red lines so why highlight Arafat?
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That deal provided for a two-state solution. The whole of Gaza was ceded to Arafat and 94% of the West Bank plus East Jerusalem as capital. This was the deal rejected by Arafat in 2000. A quick google search would confirm this.
Given the current bloodshed, that deal is a whole lot better.
 
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