Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Manchester33 said:
This Israeli government are just as bad as Hamas.
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I’ve not held back in my criticism of Netanyahu and his government before and during this, and his focus on supporting illegal settler activity on the West Bank no doubt contributed to the lack of readiness of the IDF to repel the incursion from Gaza, and for that he is complicit in the scale of the Hamas slaughter.

So yes, he’s a **** and hopefully once this is over the Israeli people will get rid of him. There certainly now appears to be a realisation amongst most of the Israeli public that his policies are doing the opposite of keeping people safe and he is being blamed by many for the negligence and personal agendas that allowed it to happen. Hopefully a new government will have a more progressive approach to the problem.

Sadly the Gazans are not in a position to get rid of Hamas because they actually do live in an area administered by tyrants with no democratic means of changing it so Israel will have to do it instead with the consequent suffering of the civilians living there. I wish there was an alternative but organised opposition to Hamas in Gaza was crushed years ago so there’s no prospect of the Palestinians getting rid of them themselves.
 
From Haaretz (paywall)

Israeli Peace Activists Who Lost Loved Ones in the Hamas Massacre Stand Their Ground​

Many of the victims of the Hamas pogrom and their family members were and continue to be peace activists. The surviving relatives now have to deal not only with profound grief and dread, but also with hateful comments; but their personal tragedy hasn't changed their dovish stance. On the contrary...

The article is about the stance of the children of Yakovi and Bilha Inon who were killed on 7th October.

The comments - presumably mostly from Israelis - could almost be lifted from this thread.
 
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west didsblue said:
I’ve not held back in my criticism of Netanyahu and his government before and during this, and his focus on supporting illegal settler activity on the West Bank no doubt contributed to the lack of readiness of the IDF to repel the incursion from Gaza, and for that he is complicit in the scale of the Hamas slaughter.

So yes, he’s a **** and hopefully once this is over the Israeli people will get rid of him. There certainly now appears to be a realisation amongst most of the Israeli public that his policies are doing the opposite of keeping people safe and he is being blamed by many for the negligence and personal agendas that allowed it to happen. Hopefully a new government will have a more progressive approach to the problem.

Sadly the Gazans are not in a position to get rid of Hamas because they actually do live in an area administered by tyrants with no democratic means of changing it so Israel will have to do it instead with the consequent suffering of the civilians living there. I wish there was an alternative but organised opposition to Hamas in Gaza was crushed years ago so there’s no prospect of the Palestinians getting rid of them themselves.
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But it’s counterproductive without offering something better, get rid of Hamas (which is doubtful anyway) kill tens of thousands of innocent people and then continue to blockade the place, you have to admit making Gaza into an open air prison camp has exacerbated the situation it’s just going to happen again

More seriously America has lost any semblance of moral authority in the region, the phone lines to the state department will be Red hot, there may even be some instability caused to allies

There’s only one winner in this and it’s Iran, the only Muslim country to remotely challenge Israel, the Mullahs will be laughing all the way to the bank
 
I definitely think we are at or close to the tipping point when America says enough, Biden has really set them back in terms of showing an even hand, unless he can pull a rabbit out the hat

But the right wing nuts in Israel continue to take the piss on the West Bank, you would think the yanks would pressure them to stop the brutality and murder, the rest of the world is seething at the injustice of it all, Hamas are an evil bunch of thugs and so are the settlers they are both driven by religious ideology and both must be defeated
 
Ducado said:
But it’s counterproductive without offering something better, get rid of Hamas (which is doubtful anyway) kill tens of thousands of innocent people and then continue to blockade the place, you have to admit making Gaza into an open air prison camp has exacerbated the situation it’s just going to happen again

More seriously America has lost any semblance of moral authority in the region, the phone lines to the state department will be Red hot, there may even be some instability caused to allies

There’s only one winner in this and it’s Iran, the only Muslim country to remotely challenge Israel, the Mullahs will be laughing all the way to the bank
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Can’t really argue with that other than to say leaving Hamas in power effectively hands them a victory and keeps the conflict going ad infinitum. That’s not to say that trying to eradicate them is a great idea either. Israel are stuck between a rock and a hard place with no easy solution, and the Gazans are stuck with either being governed by tyrants or seeing much of their territory flattened in the attempt to rid them of Hamas.
I don’t know the answer.
 
west didsblue said:
I’ve not held back in my criticism of Netanyahu and his government before and during this, and his focus on supporting illegal settler activity on the West Bank no doubt contributed to the lack of readiness of the IDF to repel the incursion from Gaza, and for that he is complicit in the scale of the Hamas slaughter.

So yes, he’s a **** and hopefully once this is over the Israeli people will get rid of him. There certainly now appears to be a realisation amongst most of the Israeli public that his policies are doing the opposite of keeping people safe and he is being blamed by many for the negligence and personal agendas that allowed it to happen. Hopefully a new government will have a more progressive approach to the problem.

Sadly the Gazans are not in a position to get rid of Hamas because they actually do live in an area administered by tyrants with no democratic means of changing it so Israel will have to do it instead with the consequent suffering of the civilians living there. I wish there was an alternative but organised opposition to Hamas in Gaza was crushed years ago so there’s no prospect of the Palestinians getting rid of them themselves.
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Great Post.
So true.
 
west didsblue said:
Can’t really argue with that other than to say leaving Hamas in power effectively hands them a victory and keeps the conflict going ad infinitum. That’s not to say that trying to eradicate them is a great idea either. Israel are stuck between a rock and a hard place with no easy solution, and the Gazans are stuck with either being governed by tyrants or seeing much of their territory flattened in the attempt to rid them of Hamas.
I don’t know the answer.
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I think some sort of deal like a cease fire negotiated by Qatar perhaps coupled with disarmament overseen by a neutral country, and an agreement for some form of democratic vote for the people of Gaza

But it’s also time the Arab nations got a grip of the PA, they are weak and corrupt and ineffective, it’s a breeding ground for radical groups, unfortunately the best alternative and most popular leader would be Bagruti (spelling) but the Israelis jailed him some time ago, he is younger than the current leadership and very popular on the street
 
Confirmation of what some of us already knew. Their intentions are and always have been obvious to anyone that is willing to take the blinkers off:



And to think there’s people who apparently think the situation is complex and Israel is misunderstood!

Is it feck, let’s call it what it is - GENOCIDE plain and simple.
 
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Bluemoon_420 said:
Confirmation of what some of us already knew. Their intentions are and always have been obvious to anyone that is willing to take the blinkers off:



And to think there’s people who apparently think the situation is complex and Israel is misunderstood!

Is it feck, let’s call it what it is - GENOCIDE plain and simple.
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But much of this is for internal politics rather than the real world, when Biden is finally woken up to his disastrous handling of this , the call will come, a bit late for many but America needs the good will of many countries and Biden has pissed most off

Unless he can come up with a rabbit from the hat, a comprehensive peace settlement that is fair to both sides

Although having said all that the provocation and murder is still continuing on the West Bank
 
Ducado said:
I think some sort of deal like a cease fire negotiated by Qatar perhaps coupled with disarmament overseen by a neutral country, and an agreement for some form of democratic vote for the people of Gaza

But it’s also time the Arab nations got a grip of the PA, they are weak and corrupt and ineffective, it’s a breeding ground for radical groups, unfortunately the best alternative and most popular leader would be Bagruti (spelling) but the Israelis jailed him some time ago, he is younger than the current leadership and very popular on the street
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Sounds like a good solution. I'm not sure how likely it is, unfortunately
 
Ducado said:
But much of this is for internal politics rather than the real world, when Biden is finally woken up to his disastrous handling of this , the call will come, a bit late for many but America needs the good will of many countries and Biden has pissed most of

Unless he can come up with a rabbit from the hat, a comprehensive peace settlement that is fair to both sides

Although having said all that the provocation and murder is still continuing on the West Bank
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Internal politics? I'm not sure which branches of Judaism would still want to take literally the destruction of the Amalekites - or God's punishment of King Saul for not finishing the job. As a precedent for genocide, to link it with the "never again" of the Holocaust is at best crass. But given the recurring wars of ancient Israel with the Amalekites, "the spirit of Amalek" is used as shorthand for the current ongoing conflict (as it has been used for many previous threats to the Jews).

But this is being preached too by American pro-Zionists, perhaps even more overtly taking genocide literally.
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Some of this was rehearsed 20 years ago, after a previous Hamas attack. https://newrepublic.com/article/66297/hitler-dead

Just two quotes (cut and pasted, and of course just "opinion"): "Is Hamas Amalek? I have no idea. Also I do not care. It is bad enough that Hamas is Hamas."

And the ending: "If, as the Israeli press is reporting, there may be signs of flexibility on the Palestinian side, it is the duty of the Israeli government to stay its hand and have a look. These signs may be false; but too many people have perished not to take their measure. The exploration of opportunities for accommodation and understanding is a matter of both prudence and principle. It may be that Ariel Sharon, of all people, has comprehended this. As long as the prime minister of Israel continues to speak of the eventual establishment of a Palestinian state, Kristallnacht is over. (For Netanyahu, by contrast, every Nacht is Kristallnacht.)"
 
Ducado said:
But much of this is for internal politics rather than the real world, when Biden is finally woken up to his disastrous handling of this , the call will come, a bit late for many but America needs the good will of many countries and Biden has pissed most off

Unless he can come up with a rabbit from the hat, a comprehensive peace settlement that is fair to both sides

Although having said all that the provocation and murder is still continuing on the West Bank
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I wish I could share your optimism bud, but the geriatric fool isn’t going to wake up to anything at all in my opinion.

The U.S will support Israel no matter what they do. The relationship with Israel is unlike any relation they have. Israel is the recipient of their biggest foreign aid package of any country in the world, despite only making up 0.01% of the world’s population. They’ve received 30% of all US foreign aid since WW2. They get around 4 billion dollars annually. That’s about 300 billion since 1945 if you adjust for inflation - That’s enough to end world hunger!

What’s more shocking is that this support is unconditional. The aid goes through unanimously regardless of what atrocities they commit. Even right now when most of the world is condemning the massacre in Gaza, the U.S is actually trying to send them more money!

The U.S ruling class also gives unconditional diplomatic cover for Israel. Despite the ICC trying to prosecute them for violations of international law, they can’t and it all comes down to the fact that the U.S always comes in to protect them. Just one of many examples is the 2014 massacre in Gaza, the UNHRC voted on a resolution to denounce the massacre, of the 38 countries to vote, only the U.S voted ‘No’. The U.S is one of the only countries that always fails to condemn Israel as we’re seeing right now with what’s unfolding.
 
arbabarshad said:
Some arguments from Israeli backers sound a bit like Liverpool fans.

Once a tragedy happened to them and now they're always victims. And should never be told they are in the wrong.
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Is the tide starting to turn against the Israelis?

They’ve enjoyed almost unqualified support from the likes of the USA and UK for years. However, the scale of (peaceful) mass demonstrations in western countries and the daily spectacle of slaughter, deprivation and terrorisation of civilians are something new.

Is the average Joe - to the extent that he/she gives a fcuk at all about Middle East events - starting to question received wisdom a little more?

Is there anyone who actually believes stamping out Hamas in the present manner will result in anything more than a renewed vicious cycle?
 
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sir baconface said:
Is the tide starting to turn against the Israelis? They’ve enjoyed almost unqualified support from the likes of the USA and UK for years.

However the scale of (peaceful) mass demonstrations in western countries and the daily spectacle of genocide against non-combatants are something new.

Of course they were massively provoked but so were the other side. Both have acted like barbarians.

Do they seriously believe wiping out Hamas in this manner will bring about peace?
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Americans have already said there is no Red Line for the Israeli's.
 
Ducado said:
But much of this is for internal politics rather than the real world, when Biden is finally woken up to his disastrous handling of this , the call will come, a bit late for many but America needs the good will of many countries and Biden has pissed most off

Unless he can come up with a rabbit from the hat, a comprehensive peace settlement that is fair to both sides

Although having said all that the provocation and murder is still continuing on the West Bank
Click to expand...
When Israel Pm says something like this, it’s for internal politics but when Hamas say it, it is for real. Despite having no capability to back up their claim.

It’s another one of those hypocrisies in western media and public. If someone (non Muslim) commits mass murder? They’re mentally challenged or it’s an individuals actions but if a Muslim does it, then it’s the issue of the whole Muslim community and ideology.
 
arbabarshad said:
When Israel Pm says something like this, it’s for internal politics but when Hamas say it, it is for real. Despite having no capability to back up their claim.

It’s another one of those hypocrisies in western media and public. If someone (non Muslim) commits mass murder? They’re mentally challenged or it’s an individuals actions but if a Muslim does it, then it’s the issue of the whole Muslim community and ideology.
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How many Muslims commit mass murder in western countries against other Muslims? It's normally the ideology religion that is the excuse for killing people and those victims are usually western people.

It's not western media or the public that make it up, it usually just is. That being said this speculation has the some total of fuck all to do with this conflict.
 
arbabarshad said:
Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

  1. Killing members of the group (Palestinian civilians)
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group (Open prison of Gaza strip)
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part (cutting fuel, power, water .. and forcing them out of their homes to migrate)
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
www.ushmm.org

What is Genocide? - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum​

Genocide as a term did not exist before 1944. Learn about its origins and legal definition.
www.ushmm.org

Perhaps you only see killing millions as genocide.
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I know what the definition of genocide is.

And, in my view, what the Israelis are doing is mass killing with a view to ethnically cleansing Gaza and making the Palestinians someone else's problem.

It may become genocide later, but it isn't yet.
 
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