Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[bluethrunthru]

I think you need provable intent to accuse someone of genocide, rather than ethnic cleansing. Intent to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group. Not sure you (as in "one" not you personally) can say there is that intent just now. And you certainly can't prove it.

On the other hand, I am not completely sure what the intent actually is, if you assume that the ideology of Hamas can't be removed by force, which is what I believe. That is why I can only think that removing the Palestinians en masse from Gaza is the likeliest. We will see, I suppose.

where do they go to?

 

[halfcenturyup]

where do they go to?

Egypt. Temporarily, of course, but then they won't be allowed back. Will never happen, imo, and I didn't say it makes much sense. None of it does to me. But it seems to me to be the likeliest objective of the Israelis, if you assume that removing Hamas from Gaza is the aim.

Let's see if we get any pressure from the US or the international community in Egypt to take in refugees "temporarily" in the next few days, then we will have our answer.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Egypt. Temporarily, of course, but then they won't be allowed back. Will never happen, imo, and I didn't say it makes much sense. None of it does to me. But it seems to me to be the likeliest objective of the Israelis, if you assume that removing Hamas from Gaza is the aim.

Let's see if we get any pressure from the US or the international community in Egypt to take in refugees "temporarily" in the next few days, then we will have our answer.

why should Egypt take them in? Because everyone else says they should? Isn't Egypt a sovereign state with a right to determine and control its own borders?

Example - something kicks off in NI. We say "well Republicans should just move south into ROI". Scotland and Wales agree with us. Does that mean ROI should just accept refugee's from the North because it suits the rest of us? Housing. Medical and educational provisions. Meh - it suits us if they just leave. The world isn't like that.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Egypt. Temporarily, of course, but then they won't be allowed back. Will never happen, imo, and I didn't say it makes much sense. None of it does to me. But it seems to me to be the likeliest objective of the Israelis, if you assume that removing Hamas from Gaza is the aim.

Let's see if we get any pressure from the US or the international community in Egypt to take in refugees "temporarily" in the next few days, then we will have our answer.

Egypt has already rejected that notion. They don't want a Palestinian national movement on their land which would inevitably use Egypt as platform for attacks as they did in Lebanon and Jordan in the past.

It wouldn't be temporary either. Israel has a long history of displacing Arabs and not welcoming them back. It's foundational.

 

[Corky]

I think you need provable intent to accuse someone of genocide, rather than ethnic cleansing. Intent to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group. Not sure you (as in "one" not you personally) can say there is that intent just now. And you certainly can't prove it.

On the other hand, I am not completely sure what the intent actually is, if you assume that the ideology of Hamas can't be removed by force, which is what I believe. That is why I can only think that removing the Palestinians en masse from Gaza is the likeliest. We will see, I suppose.

If you want peace you help build up the economy and improve their standard of living, not have a policy of persecuting them in perpetuity.

 

[halfcenturyup]

If you want peace you help build up the economy and improve their standard of living, not have a policy of persecuting them in perpetuity.

Well, agreed, but the discussion was about whether what the Israelis are doing is genocide or not.

 

[Palerider]

Two points:

1: Why do Hamas not surrender and put an end to this particular round of slaughter?

2: International Law. What's the point if no one has the balls to enforce the law? Without Israel breaking International Law where is the downside for Hamas having an annual mass massacre of Jews? What is the downside for Israel responding with overwhelming force?

 

[halfcenturyup]

Egypt has already rejected that notion. They don't want a Palestinian national movement on their land which would inevitably use Egypt as platform for attacks as they did in Lebanon and Jordan in the past.

It wouldn't be temporary either. Israel has a long history of displacing Arabs and not welcoming them back. It's foundational.

Everybody starts with their position. Those positions can change. Relentless destruction of Gaza, loss of over 10,000 people and intense lobbying from the UN, the US and Arab states could change their position. Not sure it will, but it could be that is what Israel are aiming for. Can't imagine what their end game is otherwise.

And I did say it wouldn't be temporary, at least not from the Israeli side, no matter how it was dressed up.

I also said it wouldn't solve the underlying problem, just move it and make it somebody else's.

Anyway, all speculation on my part. Probably bollocks.

 

[Corky]

Well, agreed, but the discussion was about whether what the Israelis are doing is genocide or not.

I thought you were advocating a forced exodus as the only solution. I was offering another one. My apologies.

 

[Palerider]

I think this is true as well, the constant attempt to paint everyone supporting Palestinians is an antisemitic Hamas fan boy just simply stops working when there’s hundreds of thousands of them week after week in London, Paris, New York, Glasgow, Belfast, Manchester and it’s clear 99% are not Islamic extremists but normal people who can see that what’s being done to civilians is wrong.

Unfortunately that's the way arguments go. Everyone tries to grab the moral high ground, assume victimhood and question their opponents values. Remember the Brexit wars where anyone daring to vote Leave was accused of being both racist and xenophobic? Very, very few on the Remain side argued with that because it got them a bit further up the moral high ground mountain. Human nature I'm afraid.

 

[Ducado]

Egypt. Temporarily, of course, but then they won't be allowed back. Will never happen, imo, and I didn't say it makes much sense. None of it does to me. But it seems to me to be the likeliest objective of the Israelis, if you assume that removing Hamas from Gaza is the aim.

Let's see if we get any pressure from the US or the international community in Egypt to take in refugees "temporarily" in the next few days, then we will have our answer.

Egypt was aware of this right at the start that’s why they keep a tight border, the Americans have already told them it’s out of the question, plus it would further isolate America in the region, the yanks have been foolish in this conflict but there are lines in the sand

 

[The blue phantom]

Government minister on LBC still insisting a ceasefire is something they don't support. Staggering!

 

[cucumberman]

Government minister on LBC still insisting a ceasefire is something they don't support. Staggering!

Standing in ivory towers like.

Have we forgotten the Blackstone formulation for the 1765-1769 Commentaries on the Laws of England…

It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

For the current invasion and genocide, it is the opposite. Innocents suffer, regardless.

This is war crime.

 

[dublinblue12]

Very concerning this, hungry Palestinians breaking into warehouses for food, what if Hamas make rockets out of the bread

 

[Ducado]

We are getting very close to the point the Americans say enough is enough, this not war it’s slaughter and starvation using American means

Another way has to be found, the political temperature keeps rising in the region, Western counties can’t deny what public opinion says, Israel needs saving from itself sometimes

 

[jim tolmies perm]

Very concerning this, hungry Palestinians breaking into warehouses for food, what if Hamas make rockets out of the bread

Yep young Palestinians using slings to launch cupcakes at the IDF

 

[asgoodasitgets]

If you want peace you help build up the economy and improve their standard of living, not have a policy of persecuting them in perpetuity.

Wasn’t there a report recently that Qatar had donated enough money to Palestine to improve the standard of living no end but it was primarily used by Hamas to buy arms ?

 

[grunge]

We are getting very close to the point the Americans say enough is enough, this not war it’s slaughter and starvation using American means

Another way has to be found, the political temperature keeps rising in the region, Western counties can’t deny what public opinion says, Israel needs saving from itself sometimes

Last night the military advisor sent to Israel to advise basically washed his hands of it basically saying what happens next is entirely an Israeli decision.

To me that suggests the US were trying to calm things down or advise away from a land offensive but failed to persuade them.

 

[Ducado]

Two points:

1: Why do Hamas not surrender and put an end to this particular round of slaughter?

2: International Law. What's the point if no one has the balls to enforce the law? Without Israel breaking International Law where is the downside for Hamas having an annual mass massacre of Jews? What is the downside for Israel responding with overwhelming force?

Surrender and die or die fighting I think the would be there answer, the average Hamas fighter has nothing to live for except life in an open air prison fed scraps every now and then, until people understand this we are never going to solve the problem

International Law tends to kick in after a conflict, the Americans have protected the Israelis backs over the years, and prevented a few getting arrested

Hamas are a non state actor, they by their very nature operate outside the normal rules although they can still be found guilty of war crimes

 

[Ducado]

Last night the military advisor sent to Israel to advise basically washed his hands of it basically saying what happens next is entirely an Israeli decision.

To me that suggests the US were trying to calm things down or advise away from a land offensive but failed to persuade them.

I did not see that, but the Americans do have that power, to a large extent Israel only exists in the modern world due to American patronage, when they fail to restrain them disaster ensues like the War in Lebanon, Israel needs saving from itself