Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

halfcenturyup said:
It's all a bit black and white, the analysis on here sometimes. Egypt doesn't want to take the Palestinians on its territory, even temporarily, obviously.

But things can change, promises made, carrots dangled, money pumped in. And just because the Egyptians and the Americans are saying publicly that it isn't a solution doesn't mean it won't be being discussed in private.

Again, I am not saying that it will happen or that it would solve anything, but I am trying to understand the Israelis' end-game here. What do you think it is? Other than the elimination of Hamas, which imho, isn't going to happen.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of your NI analogy other than to say it's not a fair analogy.
Click to expand...
I’m the worst in here in making comparisons, but from my point of view it’s more about the learning of lessons.There are similarities, no doubt about it, but you are correct they are not the same conflicts.

I think it’s more about learning from the conflict resolution.
 
Vic said:
Forcing the population out of Gaza would be genocide.
Click to expand...

Once again, I think you would need to show provable intent to charge the Israelis with genocide, even if they force every last Palestinian out of Gaza. Good luck trying to show provable intent.

Forcing all the Palestinians out of Gaza permanently as a result of armed conflict could certainly be ethnic cleansing if that is their end-game, especially how they are going about it. On top of that, they are certainly committing war crimes, imo. Let's not forget Gaza is an occupied territory after all, and the Israelis have a responsibility to look after the civilians there as they do their own civilians. In theory at least.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Once again, I think you would need to show provable intent to charge the Israelis with genocide, even if they force every last Palestinian out of Gaza. Good luck trying to show provable intent.

Forcing all the Palestinians out of Gaza permanently as a result of armed conflict could certainly be ethnic cleansing if that is their end-game, especially how they are going about it. On top of that, they are certainly committing war crimes, imo. Let's not forget Gaza is an occupied territory after all, and the Israelis have a responsibility to look after the civilians there as they do their own civilians. In theory at least.
Click to expand...
Gaza technically is not occupied, but they have no control of their coastal areas or land borders and airspace it’s an open prison where it’s almost impossible to escape

That the west was so blind to this fact is amazing
 
halfcenturyup said:
It's all a bit black and white, the analysis on here sometimes. Egypt doesn't want to take the Palestinians on its territory, even temporarily, obviously.

But things can change, promises made, carrots dangled, money pumped in. And just because the Egyptians and the Americans are saying publicly that it isn't a solution doesn't mean it won't be being discussed in private.

Again, I am not saying that it will happen or that it would solve anything, but I am trying to understand the Israelis' end-game here. What do you think it is? Other than the elimination of Hamas, which imho, isn't going to happen.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of your NI analogy other than to say it's not a fair analogy.
Click to expand...
Don’t put your money on that, it’s a red line drawn in the sand, it’s not going to happen if it did there would be coups all over the Middle East
 
halfcenturyup said:
It's all a bit black and white, the analysis on here sometimes. Egypt doesn't want to take the Palestinians on its territory, even temporarily, obviously.

But things can change, promises made, carrots dangled, money pumped in. And just because the Egyptians and the Americans are saying publicly that it isn't a solution doesn't mean it won't be being discussed in private.

Again, I am not saying that it will happen or that it would solve anything, but I am trying to understand the Israelis' end-game here. What do you think it is? Other than the elimination of Hamas, which imho, isn't going to happen.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of your NI analogy other than to say it's not a fair analogy.
Click to expand...

My NI reference is mere illustration to say the idea that from the relative safety we can say "oh the answer is they just move there - those next door need to take them" like thats it problem solved once again our superior intellect wins the day. We are on an island riven with hatred based around whether people should or should not come here. Just bung them a few quid that usually sorts it. For the most parts these issues around the world are the leftovers of us leaving places and fucking them up by our last deeds. There is no shortcut I know but what I also know is bombing people into seeing things your way won't work and in fact very often has the completely opposite effect to that you hoped to achieve
 
BlueAnorak said:
I see the Russian authorities are happily allowing Jewish lynch mobs go about their business in Dagastan and elsewhere.

Only a matter of time till it happens elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Just as an aside I know you are passionate about The Ukraine war and I tend to agree with many of your points

However in WW2 the Ukrainians killed more Jews than Palestinians have ever done, yes I understand they were occupied by the Germans but many 1000s were implicated most were never brought to justice many lived out their days in comfort
 
While we are on the subject of genocide I recently discovered there used to be a country called Circassia. More or less where modern day Ukraine is. Sometime in the 19th century Russia occupied and killed more than a million of the people living there. The rest fled to Turkey.
I'd heard about the Armenian holocaust but not this.
 
Ducado said:
Don’t put your money on that, it’s a red line drawn in the sand, it’s not going to happen if it did there would be coups all over the Middle East
Click to expand...

Quite possibly, but it could be dressed up as humanitarian and temporary, before becoming not so temporary.

But fair enough.

So what do you think the Israelis' end game is here? They sure as hell don't want to annex Gaza with 2 million Palestinians. They can't bomb Hamas or the Hamas ideology away. I doubt they want to see the losses in trying to take all Hamas fighters, if they can find them, out in street fighting. So what is left that gives Netanyahu the win he wants to survive? It's a mystery to me.

Tell me in 45 minutes :)
 
mexico1970 said:
That isn't what you were waffling about, in fact you just ranted about the west full stop.
Click to expand...
I was making a differentiation between hating how in the West we are led by people and interests that suit a small group. And actually hating the west. I love the cultures of the West, America aside, its architecture, history, art, literature, science, remember Scotland’s brainboxes invented the modern world through the inventions, I love the people. I haven’t been anywhere in Europe that I didn’t like the people I met. What I do hate is a system that allows the distribution of wealth creation, which people like us create, goes massively disproportionately to a very small percentage of people and families. They use this wealth to convince people like you through their control of media, that having a fairer country means resurrecting Joe Stalin, and by the looks of it with some on here, it works.
 
Haaretz article on why Netanyahu bolstered Hamas. Now what was that about October 7th, that it didn't happen in a vacuum?

www.haaretz.com

Why did Netanyahu want to strengthen Hamas?

There’s No Doubt That in the Immediate and Short Term, the Reasons Behind the Disgraceful Mishap of Inconceivable Scope That Led to the Hamas Army’s Unhindered
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com

There’s no doubt that in the immediate and short term, the reasons behind the disgraceful mishap of inconceivable scope that led to the Hamas army’s unhindered takeover of more than 20 Israeli communities near the Gaza border that dark Simchat Torah day involve an embarrassing military and intelligence failure.

Of course, they also involve the criminal neglect of the affairs of state by an indicted prime minister who is feverishly preoccupied with finding ways to escape trial. And the price is the destruction of the existential foundations of Israeli society and of the country.

But the deep roots of the feasibility of the murderous assault by the Islamist nationalist phalangists from the prison that is Gaza on Israeli citizens should actually be sought in an earlier period of Benjamin Netanyahu’s time in office as prime minister – prior to his criminal trial and his alliance with nationalist Kahanists and the judicial coup, back when he was considered “level-headed” and “rational” and “responsible.”

That’s because since he took office as prime minister a second time in 2009, that same Netanyahu developed and advanced a destructive, warped political doctrine that held that strengthening Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian Authority would be good for Israel.

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That would preserve the diplomatic paralysis and forever remove the “danger” of negotiations with the Palestinians over the partition of Israel into two states – on the argument that the Palestinian Authority doesn’t represent all the Palestinians.

That flawed strategy turned Hamas from a minor terrorist organization into an efficient, lethal army with highly trained, dehumanized stormtroopers, bloodthirsty killers who mercilessly slaughtered innocent Israeli civilians including women, children and the elderly.

This is solidly documented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).

In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019, Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

In a tweet on May 20, 2019, Channel 13 quoted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak saying: “Netanyahu isn’t interested in the two-state solution. Rather, he wants to separate Gaza from the West Bank, as he told me at the end of 2010.” Mubarak said that during an interview with the Kuwaiti daily Al-Anba.

It’s worth dwelling on the horrifying significance of these remarks. An Israeli prime minister himself knowingly and calculatingly cultivated one of Israel’s most bitter and fanatic foes, an enemy whose declared aim is to destroy the country. And he did it to prevent the horror scenario from his standpoint of a return to Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Netanyahu recklessly gambled on the lives of Israelis, and in fact, last Shabbat, more than 1,000 of them paid the price of that foolish gamble with their lives.

“This government has blood, rivers of blood, on its hands,” Iris Leal justifiably wrote in Haaretz this week, (Haaretz, Oct. 8). But one should acknowledge and clearly and explicitly state that, on the Israeli side, the person bearing the fundamental responsibility for the killing of more than a thousand Israelis by Hamas is Benjamin Netanyahu – its covert ally, as Maj. Gen. Cohen put it, but also an effective and essential one for the Palestinian religious nationalist terrorist organization, at least between 2012 and 2019.

Thanks to the funneling of millions of Qatari dollars to Gaza, with Netanyuhu’s repeated approval as part of a deliberate and malicious policy aimed at nothing other than burying the two-state solution, Hamas acquired inordinate military capabilities within a relatively short time. And that resulted in the current situation, which as I write, has taken the lives of about 1,000 Israelis.

With the end of the hostilities, when it comes, one may hope that a state commission of inquiry to investigate the events surrounding the Simchat Torah massacre – an unprecedented slaughter of Jews in their own country – would be convened. One of the main issues that the commission should investigate is Netanyahu’s long-term policy of strengthening Hamas.
 
BlueAnorak said:
I see the Russian authorities are happily allowing Jewish lynch mobs go about their business in Dagastan and elsewhere.

Only a matter of time till it happens elsewhere.
Click to expand...


It's happened again. Not sure why planes are still flying from Israel when Dagestan is full of a militant Islam and there's a long history of anti-semitic conspiracy theories being held there.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dagestan: Mob storms Russian airport in search of Jews

Israel urges Russia to protect Jews after furious crowd confronts passengers arriving from Tel Aviv.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
halfcenturyup said:
Quite possibly, but it could be dressed up as humanitarian and temporary, before becoming not so temporary.

But fair enough.

So what do you think the Israelis' end game is here? They sure as hell don't want to annex Gaza with 2 million Palestinians. They can't bomb Hamas or the Hamas ideology away. I doubt they want to see the losses in trying to take all Hamas fighters, if they can find them, out in street fighting. So what is left that gives Netanyahu the win he wants to survive? It's a mystery to me.

Tell me in 45 minutes :)
Click to expand...
End game? Well the plan is to get rid of Hamas but most people doubt it can be done by force, apart from that who knows, there doesn’t appear to be a plan in place

Noted that the Americans told them to turn communications back on, and they complied, this will end when it gets too painful for the Americans I think we are close to that point, they have lots of dominoes that could fall, and all this conflict is doing is making Iran stronger and more popular in the region I sense a whiff of panic now, Blinkin is trying to sooth the Turks no doubt he will be hot footing it around the region again
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top