Middle East Conflict

bluethrunthru said:
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That can’t do anything other than firm up opposition to the settler movement amongst ordinary Israelis. Israelis support the IDF more than any other institution in Israel (mainly because nearly everyone under 40 is a part of it and everyone will have family members that have been called up), and if a bunch of religious settler zealots are attacking them they’re not going to endear themselves to the sane majority. I’m hopeful that the extremists will be marginalised at the end of this, whereas previously they were out of sight out of mind over the other side of a big wall.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Hamas are a terrorist organisation intent on murder and don’t adhere to international law. We all know that.
However Israel are no saints and never have been.
I’m totally secular and although I understand the circumstances after the Second World War that led to the granting of the Israeli state, I find the idea of setting up a Jewish state and removing the people who already lived there, totally flawed.
Maybe it’s me not understanding Jewish and Judaism. Jewish being a culture perhaps and not a religion, but Ben Gurion declared it a Jewish state, which is non inclusive in my mind.
Regardless though, the neighbours took exception and through war the original borders changed.
Since 1967 however it looks to the objective outside world that there has been an expansionist agenda and every opportunity has been taken, using any excuse no matter how unjustified the objective outside world find it.

Israel are in violation of quite a few international rules.
Have a look.
You may not like the source, but they say where they are drawing information from.
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It's an interesting question whether jews are a race, a religion or a culture. I find it hard to wrestle with myself. But I can tell you that in my DNA ancestry test, I'm half Eastern European Jewish (dad's side of the family). The other half is Middle Eastern, from mum's side in Syria. Also jewish, but sephardi which is middle eastern origin jews. The point being if it's actually identified in the DNA that someone is jewish, to me that makes it a race, as well as a culture and a religion. An large percentage of jews are either completely non practising, or practice very little. A proportion of jews are self declared atheists, who don't practice anything. Many of them have very strong jewish identities (in their own words, not just mine). David Baddiel is one of the most well known in that last category

So I don' t think it's easy to give a clear cut answer to that question. However the Nazis wouldn't worry about distinguishing and that's one of the main reasons behind Israel's creation. You're entitled to the opinion that there shouldn't be a jewish state, or to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth, that you have issues with the way it was done, which was of course down to many countries in the international community. THere's no question there's plenty of criticism can be aimed at the way it happened. I think Israel deserve plenty of criticism for the way they've handled the Palestinians in recent years,, particularly their attitude towards settlements in the West Bank.
 
blue5ter said:
No problem, here's the Geneva convention. You should probably start with article 4
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf
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They’ve broken Articles 12,13, 14, 21, 33, 45, 46, 47 and 49 for starters. I’m sure a lot more will emerge.
 
Ducado said:
Sure the US could flatten Tehran, but the Iranians could just as easily block the gulf shipping lanes, what would hurt more?

I don't have a problem with your characterisation of the Iranian Regime but you have to remember they are there because of the interference of the US and British governments in Iranian affairs and hoisting a dictator upon them every bit as bad as the current regime

We all know what the key to unlocking all this, its coming up with a just solution to the the Palestinian problem, it's a festering wound in the Middle East and a rallying point for blood thirty fanatics also this conflict is now threatening normalisation in the region

The Iranian issue will have to be sorted out by the Iranian people anything else will be rejected
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The single largest reason for the for the lack of democracy across the world is the US habit of toppling democratically elected governments and imposing right wing dictatorships on developing countries. It happens to this day.
Then the Americans wonder why they are so universally hated across the globe.
 
xgorton said:
First class coont,the soldier.
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He's not an isolated case.
This is precisely how the IDF operates to suppress and oppress the Palestinians under Israeli occupation.
I could post videos of former IDF soldiers that will admit to systematic abuse of civilian Palestinians by the Israeli military.
It is a fascist apartheid system the Palestinians are having to endure.
 
goalmole said:
The single largest reason for the for the lack of democracy across the world is the US habit of toppling democratically elected governments and imposing right wing dictatorships on developing countries. It happens to this day.
Then the Americans wonder why they are so universally hated across the globe.
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IMO you’re excusing us from a lot of responsibility.

Iran was us mostly.
 
blue5ter said:
It's an interesting question whether jews are a race, a religion or a culture. I find it hard to wrestle with myself. But I can tell you that in my DNA ancestry test, I'm half Eastern European Jewish (dad's side of the family). The other half is Middle Eastern, from mum's side in Syria. Also jewish, but sephardi which is middle eastern origin jews. The point being if it's actually identified in the DNA that someone is jewish, to me that makes it a race, as well as a culture and a religion. An large percentage of jews are either completely non practising, or practice very little. A proportion of jews are self declared atheists, who don't practice anything. Many of them have very strong jewish identities (in their own words, not just mine). David Baddiel is one of the most well known in that last category

So I don' t think it's easy to give a clear cut answer to that question. However the Nazis wouldn't worry about distinguishing and that's one of the main reasons behind Israel's creation. You're entitled to the opinion that there shouldn't be a jewish state, or to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth, that you have issues with the way it was done, which was of course down to many countries in the international community. THere's no question there's plenty of criticism can be aimed at the way it happened. I think Israel deserve plenty of criticism for the way they've handled the Palestinians in recent years,, particularly their attitude towards settlements in the West Bank.
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Well, that’s a measured response. Thanks for that and no I’m not saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist, I’m more along the lines of your second conclusion. Maybe being Irish, I see ironic similarities with the same diplomats involved in the drawing up of borders and authorising a solution that so obviously would cause problems or difficulties for local people.

However, I can look at the last 55 years or so objectively, without a horse in the race, so to speak, and not withstanding attacks on Israel itself from neighbours, I see so
much sectarianism and apartheid behaviour that doesn’t sit well with me.

What’s going on in the occupied West Bank alone is totally unjustifiable and illegal. It’s pure theft and as Noam Chomsky says, the conditions in Gaza are indescribably worse in what amounts to an open prison.

I say these are the facts of what we are dealing with. This is the elephant in the room that I find, the pro-Israeli viewpoint does not want to talk about.

It has been said by many in here and it is also a fact. This conflict did not start on the 7th of October.

That’s the way I see it. I have plenty of criticism for both sides of the war that has been declared, but I don’t think the elephant in the room is being addressed and I have no confidence that the Israeli government regardless of its right to defend Israel is not opportunistically land grabbing. Only time will tell with that one.
 
Vic said:
Even if he's left the thread, others may appreciate a more informed understanding of Zionism. Never mind a single definition of Zionism, it would help to know about all the different historical varieties of Zionism - including those not just after a "national home" but a restoration of the largest area that "Israel" held in Biblical times, not just the river (Jordan) to the sea but the river Nile to the river Euphrates. And (by modern standards certainly) it's hard not to see describing Asians as "barbarians" compared to Europeans as just a wee bit racist.

Herzl’s Troubled Dream: The Origins of Zionism | History Today

www.historytoday.com www.historytoday.com
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Very interesting article. Thanks.
 
goalmole said:
The single largest reason for the for the lack of democracy across the world is the US habit of toppling democratically elected governments and imposing right wing dictatorships on developing countries. It happens to this day.
Then the Americans wonder why they are so universally hated across the globe.
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blue5ter said:
But I didn't;t say that

I said that Hamas wanted to erase the entire jewish race. I referenced Israel earlier in my post.
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The quote below from you was what I was talking about:

"I feel the entire jewish race is being unfairly accused of things they aren't guilty of,"

In fairness, you did say it was a 'feeling'
 
blue5ter said:
You just accused a country of breaking all the international rules in the book but then admit you can't name a single specific law they are breaking. That's hatred in my book. I like to deal in those pesky little things called facts. I know they are annoying, but when I feel the entire jewish race is being unfairly accused of things they aren't guilty of, whilst fighting an enemy who as recently as yesterday evening stated on TV they wanted to keep repeating the Oct 7th masssacre until all jews are destroyed, it seems reasonable to want to stick to facts. Or do you not agree ?
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I don't think your average bluemooner needs to be able to quote from a lawbook to know the difference between right and wrong.

I doubt Kaz7 would know the exact law that refers to targeting citizens, hospitals and refugee camps, collective punishment, prevention of essential aid, cutting off water and electricity, use of chemical weapons on civilians etc etc, it would be weird if she did tbh, and neither do I, but I have no doubt they are in there.

Perhaps they are not breaking all of them, just a large amount of them, is that better?

I don't think Netanyahus Regime represents Jewish people at all before you throw hate accusations my way too. Same way I don't think Hamas represent Muslims/ Arabs/ whatever
 
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