Middle East Conflict

inbetween said:
I actually question whether these people are upset about war and death because why weren't they upset on the 7th October? Where were the protests when 1500 Israeli's were killed? Have any of them protested for Hamas to release hostages? Of course they haven't, they just stand on the opposite side of the violence, they aren't opposed to it.

I don't think there is a side of history to stand on other than it all must end. I disagree with Israel's methods, it has gone too far, I think we can all agree on that. However Hamas must stop and release hostages as much as Israel must stop the bombings. Israel isn't going to get far by continuing the bombings but then Hamas is continuing to fight an inevitable war at the detriment of Palestinians. Both are playing a zero sum game.

Unfortunately peace isn't going to happen whilst idiots in London demand for 'Intifadas' and continued armed resistance against a nuclear armed country. The end result is obvious. For many of these people this language isn't used to help Palestinians, it's a political identity issue used to propagate the aims of the Socialist Worker and the hard left.
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Much of that was over-emotional hyperbole, which I can let go in view of the situation, but why a nuclear armed country? Why not just a country with far superior materiel?
 
inbetween said:
Hezbollah are cowards, there is no chance that they're going to act because they know what that means. The US has two carrier strike groups in the Eastern Mediterranean and there are probably a ton of special forces already in Israel.

So far the US has shown restraint in supporting Israel, they have said a lot but they haven't done a lot. That all changes if Israel is attacked.

You have to remember that the US has bases in Greece and also there is the RAF base in Cyprus. They can bring trouble to Hezbollah very quickly.

Everyone in that region is scared shitless of US involvement and that's why they're largely not getting involved.
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They have no need to start a major war that would damage them, that’s not what Iran pays them for, their job is to keep the IDF on the northern border, did you listen to Nasrallas speech? They are there as a threat they know on their own they couldn’t defeat Israel but they could do a lot of damage

Their real role is to act as a forward Iranian force in case Iran is ever attacked either by the US or Israel.

One of the reasons I think this whole war is counterproductive is that it strengthens Iran, especially on the Arab street

Do we want Iran to dominate the Middle East?
 

Ducado said:
They have no need to start a major war that would damage them, that’s not what Iran pays them for, their job is to keep the IDF on the northern border, did you listen to Nasrallas speech? They are there as a threat they know on their own they couldn’t defeat Israel but they could do a lot of damage

Their real role is to act as a forward Iranian force in case Iran is ever attacked either by the US or Israel.

One of the reasons I think this whole war is counterproductive is that it strengthens Iran, especially on the Arab street

Do we want Iran to dominate the Middle East?
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Get the point about perceived regional leadership, but would Iran ever get to dominate the Middle East when most of it is strongly, and securely, Sunni? Isn't Iraq the only other strongly Shia country in the region?
 
Gray said:
If 1,400 people, going about their everyday lives, had not been massacred then this thread would not exist.
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And if ... and if ... and if ... then 1,400 people going about their everyday lives wouldn't have been massacred on October 7th. Nothing personal, but you put forward a hopelessly simplistic case for this conflict.

And, factually, this thread existed before October 7th. Why do you think that is?
 
Gray said:
If 1,400 people, going about their everyday lives, had not been massacred then this thread would not exist.
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See the first post of the thread

The blue phantom said:
So 42 Palestinians killed and 5'500 injured along the Gaza fence in the last month. Live rounds used, 4 children shot in the head/killed further 233 injured.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/UN-human-rights-chief-decries-Israels-use-of-excessive-force-in-Gaza-552888/amp
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inbetween said:
I actually question whether these people are upset about war and death because why weren't they upset on the 7th October? Where were the protests when 1500 Israeli's were killed? Have any of them protested for Hamas to release hostages? Of course they haven't, they just stand on the opposite side of the violence, they aren't opposed to it.

I don't think there is a side of history to stand on other than it all must end. I disagree with Israel's methods, it has gone too far, I think we can all agree on that. However Hamas must stop and release hostages as much as Israel must stop the bombings. Israel isn't going to get far by continuing the bombings but then Hamas is continuing to fight an inevitable war at the detriment of Palestinians. Both are playing a zero sum game.

Unfortunately peace isn't going to happen whilst idiots in London demand for 'Intifadas' and continued armed resistance against a nuclear armed country. The end result is obvious. For many of these people this language isn't used to help Palestinians, it's a political identity issue used to propagate the aims of the Socialist Worker and the hard left.
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People are protesting against Israel's actions because they seem to be receiving the full unqualified backing of our government and many other Western governments. Hamas are a terrorist group whose actions have been widely condemned. It usually goes without saying that people disagree with terrorism. I think if our own government set off a bomb in central london you'd probably see more protests than if ISIS did it. I think this is quite basic stuff tbh and anyone making these kind of arguments are usually being wilfully ignorant and doing so in bad faith.

I also dread to think how many innocent Israeli hostages are being killed by this indiscriminate bombing.

I would also like to see the end of Hamas but I think it's fairly obvious that this isnt the way to go about it. This is an exercise designed to drive Palestinian out of Gaza for good, disguised as a genuine attempt to destroy Hamas. It will see thousands of people killed as collateral damage and place a target on the backs of innocent Israeli people for a long time. Netanyahu's actions in the build up to this have never put the safety of Israeli people first and they aren't doing that now.

Can't speak for everyone, but anyone I know who has attended any of these protests was horrified and disgusted by what happeneed on October 7th.
 
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domalino said:
How many civilians need to die between now and next Sunday before you think it’s ok to March for an ceasefire and stop asking people to just “take a breather” from protesting it? Put a number on it.
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Until you learn to be less domineering and intrusive, I won’t be indulging you.

Go and find someone else if you want to play silly games.
 
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Mon Autre said:
Does intifada definitely mean genocide? Or has someone heard an Arabic sounding word and drawn their own conclusions as to what it means?

Either way, if David Atherton genuinely finds genocide repugnant then it might make sense to speak out about the one that's actually happening.
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It is the same as claiming Free Nelson Mandela meant the extermination of all white and asians in Africa.

Just bull shit by the Tommy Robinsons jumping in to "support Israel" of Isreal as the right wingers struggle to spell it.
 
Corky said:
It is the same as claiming Free Nelson Mandela meant the extermination of all white and asians in Africa.

Just bull shit by the Tommy Robinsons jumping in to "support Israel" of Isreal as the right wingers struggle to spell it.
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Over 4000 white farmers murdered in South Africa since 1994.

Still to this day you will hear “one settler, one bullet” and “kill the boer, kill the farmer”

Is that right wing bullshit as well?
 
Human rights or Sovereignty?

People living in wealthy countries often ignore the importance of sovereignty. People will feel that as long as there is freedom for citizens, trade, law, and democratic elections. Everything happens naturally.

If the US government slightly infringes on our sovereignty, we can turn a blind eye because we are citizens of a democratic country living in a glorious free world. If there are any problems, let's talk about it in the next election. (It doesn't matter if you forget then)

But for people in third world countries, without sovereignty, there can be no human rights.

This may be a bit exaggerated. To be more precise, without sovereignty, it is difficult to achieve development. Without development, it means poverty, violence, conflict, and turbulent political situations. People from wealthy countries will visit your country for sightseeing like they do in a zoo. They will provide you with some assistance, clean water, and medical assistance. These will not fundamentally change anything.

Some people may ask, countries like Japan and South Korea do not seem to have complete sovereignty, are they not very wealthy?

The key is that the number of ‘golden billion’ is limited, and you cannot turn everyone into a member of ‘golden billion’ family, by saying 'we love America'. More likely, they are Japan and South Korea, while your country is just a zoo or banana plantation.

Writing down these ideas is not because I am anti-America, in fact, we are far from that. We have high respect for Western civilization. These are just cruel realities. We have a long history, and history itself is not something to be proud of. If there is really something to be proud of, it is that we have been beaten by history, which is very painful and makes us retain some realism.
 
blueinsa said:
Over 4000 white farmers murdered in South Africa since 1994.

Still to this day you will hear “one settler, one bullet” and “kill the boer, kill the farmer”

Is that right wing bullshit as well?
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They are pretty right wing and in a SA context murders are pretty common.
South-Africa-White-Supremacist-AJH104.jpg
 
splinter said:
It'll never end will it ..all rather depressing. Grateful for city and beers for cheering me up.
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Possibly the most insightful comment on the board. I'm convinced that some people just really enjoy hating, and hating with real venom. It's an addiction and a mental disease and it must somehow give them a 'kick'.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Get the point about perceived regional leadership, but would Iran ever get to dominate the Middle East when most of it is strongly, and securely, Sunni? Isn't Iraq the only other strongly Shia country in the region?
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You are right the majority of the Arab world is Sunni and Iranians (who not Arab) are mainly Shia, but it does not tend to matter that much, as an aside Shia Islam is more flowery and mystical it’s been described as being like Catholicism whereas Sunni tends to be quite austere, in fact all three faiths have similar spectrums
 
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