Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

inbetween said:
You've already answered your own question. Hamas previously attacked from afar with rockets and anything else near the border fence usually amounted to Palestinians throwing rocks. Gaza is not peaceful but why would the Israeli's be worried? There is a complacency there that nothing really bad is going to happen because it hasn't happened before.

It is definitely possible that Israeli intelligence didn't know the details of the attack in terms of the day, method and timing. If you don't know any or all of these and your attackers plan an attack early morning on a quiet holy day.... How is it possible that you could repel a sudden attack of a 3000 strong army, some of whom have literally flown over the border fence into Israel?

As has already been posted there are countless examples of such intelligence failures in history. The biggest questions of Israeli intelligence and the armed forces will be asked on complacency and not conspiracy.
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Regardless of everything you have said, we can possibly all agree that Benjamin Netanyahu got the war he wanted, no?

For more than 20 years (of the 70 year conflict) that he's been in power, he's opposed a 2 state solution right back until the Bill Clinton presidency.

Netanyahu in power with a very right wing coalition, the most heavily fortified border in the world that has the best satellite technology was apparently wide open for 2 hours after the attack. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but this does pose an awful lot of questions. In the meantime, Netanyahu has achieved what he wanted - completely destroying any semblance of normal life on the Gaza Strip. Even if it stops today, 600k people are homeless, children cannot go to school, young adults cannot go to university and the health service is crippled. He's now bulldozing roads up, so even when they return there's no way back. He's justifying his actions by claiming that Hamas are everywhere - therefore everywhere can be bombed, and more than 4000 innocent children have died in the process.

You can be pro Palestinian, and anti hamas just like you can be anti Israeli foreign policy but not anti semitic. Where is the humanity in any of this? Questions need to be asked.
 
cucumberman said:
Then you’re way behind your understanding then.

All mobile phones in Gaza and West Bank use +972, which is governed under Israeli telcomms.

Too bad your understanding is textbook.
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Not just phones - that was just an example. Every form of communication you can imagine can be mapped.
 
arbabarshad said:
What is best by Palestinian people? Being told to leave their homeland en mass ? To maybe save their lives if not killed on the way? Or in a refugee camp ?
Are Israelis going to do the best by Palestinian people?
Hamas killed innocent people, whoever is responsible should be made to account for it but should those responsible on Israeli side be brought to account for killing innocents before 7 October ? And since ?
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The best thing for the Palestinian people is a recognised Palestinian state. However, to get there one must recognise the other as part of any solution and that's the problem. Are the Palestinians likely to get closer to this objective with Hamas or any violent aggressor in Gaza? No, it's the opposite.

It's extremely easy for Israel to coexist with Hamas in Gaza because the Israeli military is very well equipped to deal with any threat. This changes however if Hamas becomes better equipped and becomes more violent which is what is happening and that has now been recognised as a major threat by Israel.

As I've said so many times on this thread, armed resistance on the part of Hamas is completely pointless. Israel can fight a war with Hamas forever which means the Palestinian people will suffer that decision by Hamas potentially forever. That isn't going to change unless the narrative changes which is one that calls for an end to violence and one where each recognises the others need for a peaceful end.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Not just phones - that was just an example.
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But you concluded without any doubt that it was mobile connectivity, even mentioning of E2E to convince all in this thread.

And now you backtracked

So your explanations for all this while in this thread is conjectural and textbook.
 
BrianW said:
Strange how 'patriots' have such a piss poor command of the beautiful English tongue.

'country's' is spelt wrongly and numerous random capitalisations, as if they are affecting the style of an 18th-century girl in a love letter.
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Using the possessive of country isn't really the be all of an opinion mate. But you're right ideologues and extremes should be marginalised for what they bring to the table.
 
inbetween said:
That sort of capability is completely unprecedented. Have you seen their extensive military infrastructure throughout Gaza or the Hamas command HQ built below a hospital? Hamas has only really existed in Gaza militarily since 2006 but they're clearly no longer a relatively unthreatening Palestinian resistance movement. It is now a well equipped terrorist army that has its own aims that are far beyond the needs of the Palestinians.

Many people on here have ridiculous selective amnesia. Even if there is a ceasefire, are Hezbollah going to cease their attacks on the northern border? What about the Houthi's and recent attacks on Israel and US airbases? What about the rhetoric coming from an entire country such as Iran, thank christ we stopped them from getting nuclear weapons!

It's hard to understand how much the game against Israel has changed and escalated massively in just a month. Hamas probably wanted to provoke Israel and then use the response to get the likes of Hezbollah and Iran onboard which has clearly been extremely successful. What was the alternative for Israel though? Do nothing?

If anything, what Hamas did however was the biggest blow to the Palestinian movement ever and it will send them towards further pain and misery. It just proves that Hamas does not represent nor aim to do the best by the Palestinian people and so the only way forward is that they must be removed.
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The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.
 
old-boys-YYF said:
Israel wants Gaza, and no one can stop them. It's just that simple. Game over.
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Really? What are they going to do with over 2 million pissed off Palestinians? It’s been made clear to them that expulsion is not an option, they may end up being reluctant occupiers because no one is willing to replace a Hamas government

It’s an operation with little or no planning for the day after, Hamas don’t need to put up a big fight all they will do is wage an insurgent campaign from the rubble on the occupying troops and this bleed Israel of men and resources

I will repeat what I have always said, Israel needs saving from itself
 
arbabarshad said:
Those supporting Israel in their genocide, mass murder, land grab … are hypocrites and complicit in Israel’s actions. They have no legitimate defence of Israel’s actions so resort to making prolonged arguments over daily issues to avoid talking about the longer term issues.

I hope everyone complicit in genocide and mass murder of innocents (thousands of children and women) die a slow and painful death. And that applies to anyone complicity in murder of anyone innocent, Palestinian or Israeli.
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And yet if Hamas hadn't attacked this war wouldn't have started.
 
Complex Simplicity said:
The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.
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So what are you saying? Israel should stop and leave Gaza? Then what? I hope you understand that Hamas wanted this to happen. They went and killed people in order to force this response by Israel.

The last thing that Hamas wants is for Israel to stop because the Israeli response drives their entire narrative. If Israel stops then Hamas will continue or they will get worse and what is your proportional response to that?

Obviously it's fine for Israeli's to die of course.
Vic said:
No. Have you?
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I wonder where they got the money to build their tunnel networks used to kill people?

Keep donating!
 
inbetween said:
The best thing for the Palestinian people is a recognised Palestinian state. However, to get there one must recognise the other as part of any solution and that's the problem. Are the Palestinians likely to get closer to this objective with Hamas or any violent aggressor in Gaza? No, it's the opposite.

It's extremely easy for Israel to coexist with Hamas in Gaza because the Israeli military is very well equipped to deal with any threat. This changes however if Hamas becomes better equipped and becomes more violent which is what is happening and that has now been recognised as a major threat by Israel.

As I've said so many times on this thread, armed resistance on the part of Hamas is completely pointless. Israel can fight a war with Hamas forever which means the Palestinian people will suffer that decision by Hamas potentially forever. That isn't going to change unless the narrative changes which is one that calls for an end to violence and one where each recognises the others need for a peaceful end.
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It’s easy for them whilst they are in power occupying the area fighting an insurrection will not be easy and very costly as the Americans keep warning them, Hamas will not battle the IDF straight on, they will wait until the IDF occupies the strip, I doubt there are many even in the North just token resistance, it’s all very The art of war
 
Complex Simplicity said:
The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.
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War is never proportional.
If you don’t want bad things to happen don't start it.
I'm fairly sure it was Intentional, by Hamas, as part of a long term plan to choke Israel's support in the west - and Isreal do seem keen to jump into the trap with both feet.
I don't think Israel leaders are actually that thick, so their plan is what exactly? I haven't worked it into yet.
 
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Complex Simplicity said:
The point that you're missing from your argument here is "proportionate response".

What we have seen from Israel is not proportionate. The death of over 4000 children who have nothing to do with Hamas, and have no idea about politics is not acceptable. This is a mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Nobody disputes the facts that Israel should defend themselves, but if we are honest Israel (throughout history dating back to 1948) rarely follows the rules of international law. The illegal settler towns are evidence of that. Israel started off in 1948 the size of a postage stamp and has aggressively increased its size to an A4 piece of paper. Israel is an aggressive neighbour, and everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect. That has not happened for the Palestinians for 70 years as they've been moved off their own land and pushed into a strip of land which is overpopulated, and without the basic services for what we would class as normal.

If you oppress a population in this way what do expect would be the outcome? Israel could have lived in peace with a Palestinian country as a neighbour, but it chose to subject these people to this terrible oppression.
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Let's have your comprehensive account of an Israeli military response that achieves it's objectives and remains proportionate.
 
Ducado said:
Really? What are they going to do with over 2 million pissed off Palestinians? It’s been made clear to them that expulsion is not an option, they may end up being reluctant occupiers because no one is willing to replace a Hamas government

It’s an operation with little or no planning for the day after, Hamas don’t need to put up a big fight all they will do is wage an insurgent campaign from the rubble on the occupying troops and this bleed Israel of men and resources

I will repeat what I have always said, Israel needs saving from itself
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Who's made it clear that expulsion is not an option?

The Americans have said that, but is it clear?

The existential threat to Israel is not from terrorist attacks, but from alienating ordinary Americans. A time may come when "there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph".
 
cucumberman said:
But you concluded without any doubt that it was mobile connectivity, even mentioning of E2E to convince all in this thread.

And now you backtracked

So your explanations for all this while in this thread is conjectural and textbook.
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Oh give over - this is a forum not a basis for marked PHD submission.
 
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BlueAnorak said:
War is never proportional.
If you don’t want bad things to happen don't start it.
I'm fairly sure it was Intentional as part of long term plan to chock Israel's support in the west and Isreal do seem keen to jump into the trap with both feet.
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This isn't a war. This is a complete destruction of the entire infrastructure of the Gaza Strip and the death of a population. This is Genocide and ethnic cleansing. The United Nations, Spanish Government and many others back up those claims.

Along with every aid agency who so far have lost 116 aid workers in the midst of this bombardment. If this ends today, how do the Palestinian people survive? Winter is coming, and for the 600k homeless people there will be many more deaths. We haven't even started to see the catastrophe that is Palestine, but I'm sure there are worse things to come and we will be witnessing this on our TV's.

Shame on our government who say that this is acceptable. These aren't the British values I stand for.
 
Roachy said:
Let's have your comprehensive account of an Israeli military response that achieves it's objectives and remains proportionate.
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I've already explained that I don't think it is proportionate. If you can explain to me how this is justified I'd really like to hear it?
 
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