Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Churchlawtonblue said:
That's propaganda. There is zero independent evidence that that has occurred.
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What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?
 
philiph20 said:
Everybody on here has been vociferous in their criticism of the repugnant Hamas, Hamas are scum as are Likud but one sides crimes are ignored by western governments and they are given carte blanche to behave as they please that's the difference.
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Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead? We know they won't do that, so who is at fault really?
 
Vic said:
You have a right to live in Israel, over a century after your ancestors chose to come to the UK rather than go to Palestine. They got here a few years before the UK passed the Aliens Act to keep out Jews from Russia.

Do the Palestinians have a right to return to the land their ancestors left?
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Yes, but some are more equal than others.
 
inbetween said:
Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead?
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Well i personally wouldn't believe a word Israel (or Hamas for that matter) say, the hostages need to be released immediately but would Israel keep their part of the 'bargain'?, with Likud calling the shots and the barbaric IDF getting a collective hard-on as the death toll mounts I doubt that, indiscriminate vengeful bombing of civilians will only create a constant stream of recruits not just in Gaza but all over the middle east, it's a never ending vicious circle and while 'Uncle Sam' and their gutless puppets in the west sing from the same hymn sheet nothing will ever change.

The solution isn't bombing the shit out of civilians or kidnapping people just living their lives, imagine if the RAF did the same to Belfast and Derry during the 'troubles' they wouldn't have been allowed to but Israel can, sideline the extremists and talk and don't let the USA be the sole country in the middle during these talks because they can't be trusted on this issue, a combination of countries who are a bit more fair minded hopefully could lead it with the USA involved.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?
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Independent, ie Not IDF and not HAMAS both of which have clear agendas.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?
Click to expand...




The IDF claim

This building has become a central focus of Israel's war, described as a key command centre, even potentially the "beating heart" of Hamas operations.

The IDF evidence

In the brightly lit corridors of the MRI unit, Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus shows us three small stashes of Kalashnikovs, ammunition and bullet-proof vests - he says they have found around 15 guns in all, along with some grenades.

….

This, Lt Col Conricus said, suggested Hamas were here "within the last few days".
"At the end of the day, this is just the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Hamas aren't here because they saw we were coming. This is probably what they were forced to leave behind. Our assessment is that there's much more."

Hardly reflective of the “beating heart” of operations, perhaps more reflective of weapons of injured fighters seeking medical attention (I’ll refrain from calling them terrorists as we don’t know why they are fighting but I recognise they may be, so use the word fighters with caution). Even if they were using the hospital as cover it’s not screaming “command centre”. Starting to remind me of Blair/Bush and their WMDs and this is looking like IDFs intel is wrong - if this is so wrong how many other “Hamas targets” they have claimed to hit in the past month or so that were actually nothing more than peoples homes or refugee camps?

Your last paragraph is spot on.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?
Click to expand...
You'd hope for the hostages' sake that it was restraining the IDF on the ground.
 
inbetween said:
Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead? We know they won't do that, so who is at fault really?
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The sensible person would say give the Palestinian people either a state where the can govern themselves and determine their own future or give them full citizenship and rights in a single state where Jews and Arabs have equal rights.
Killing Palestinians in Gaza or inflicting apartheid on Palestinians in the West Bank is never going to kill the spirit of resistance in a people who were dispossessed, discriminated against, disenfranchised and are now being massacred.
If the Palestinians don't get to live in peace, neither will the Israelis.
 
inbetween said:
Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead? We know they won't do that, so who is at fault really?
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What does "Hamas surrenders" look like? 20,000 PoWs never to be seen again?

And we can see what is happening in the West Bank where there are no "freedom fighters" to deter settlers (and IDF watching on).

So I'm afraid "Israel has said consistently" isn't much of an incentive for a Hamas "surrender" (or even to get Hamas to agree a ceasefire). To put it bluntly, without trying to justify the hostage-taking, do you think Hamas believe that releasing the hostages would mean Israel would stop, or just be less restrained to carry on south?
 
inbetween said:
Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?
Click to expand...

There has been plenty of discussion around a better strategy after October 7th , but the solution from here? It's difficult to see one since Israel set itself an unachievable target of eliminating Hamas and has been trying to implement it ruthlessly and recklessly. Short of an ethnic cleansing or a genocide, they won't destroy Hamas in Gaza and even then, they just shift the problem to the border with Egypt rather than the border with Gaza. The first rocket after that will show they have failed. And the damage that would do to Israel (the solution, not the rocket) .... And to Egypt, for that matter.

Otherwise, I suppose at some point, Israel have to declare "Mission Accomplished" and pull out, possibly in return for the hostages if any of them are still alive by then, but that would be political suicide for Netanyahu. Or maybe they can say all the leaders have been killed so Hamas has been decapitated. But once again, the first rocket and it's all blown out of the water. Difficult to see a way out of this mess at all, honestly, ever since the first response.
 
halfcenturyup said:
There has been plenty of discussion around a better strategy after October 7th , but the solution from here? It's difficult to see one since Israel set itself an unachievable target of eliminating Hamas and has been trying to implement it ruthlessly and recklessly. Short of an ethnic cleansing or a genocide, they won't destroy Hamas in Gaza and even then, they just shift the problem to the border with Egypt rather than the border with Gaza. The first rocket after that will show they have failed. And the damage that would do to Israel (the solution, not the rocket) .... And to Egypt, for that matter.

Otherwise, I suppose at some point, Israel have to declare "Mission Accomplished" and pull out, possibly in return for the hostages if any of them are still alive by then, but that would be political suicide for Netanyahu. Or maybe they can say all the leaders have been killed so Hamas has been decapitated. But once again, the first rocket and it's all blown out of the water. Difficult to see a way out of this mess at all, honestly, ever since the first response.
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I refer you to my post a couple of posts before yours.
That is the only way to solve this, today, tomorrow, in a hundred years.
You can drag it out as long as you want, it ain't going away.
 
goalmole said:
I refer you to my post a couple of posts before yours.
That is the only way to solve this, today, tomorrow, in a hundred years.
You can drag it out as long as you want, it ain't going away.
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Well yes, I was talking about the immediate situation. I have given my thoughts many times on what I think should have happened after October 7th and that included most of your points. But how do we get out of the current mess?
 
I keep hearing the give them a state argument which is fine but the issue is, the state they want means the end of Israel.

Can anyone spot the problem with this ever so simple answer everyone keeps repeating?
 
blueinsa said:
I keep hearing the give them a state argument which is fine but the issue is, the state they want means the end of Israel.

Can anyone spot the problem with this ever so simple answer everyone keeps repeating?
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Yes, I can give it a go. Is it the fact that the current Israeli government doesn't want a two-state solution?
 
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