Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Vic said:
I posed a moral case a couple of days ago.

Is anyone who fires a gun at an IDF soldier in south Gaza a Hamas terrorist or just someone defending their home?
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It's weird how these are totally normal conversations.

Why does this random geezer in Gaza have a gun and where did he get it from I wonder?
 
Username Required said:
There's no way Israel is going to consent to the removal of the 500,000 settlers from the West Bank & 200,000 from East Jerusalem. There's no way the IDF and police are going to get involved in the removal of settlers who will resist.

www.newyorker.com

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers

A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state.
www.newyorker.com www.newyorker.com



I fail to see a solution that really results in two sovereign states.
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It doesn't.
The Israeli right wing politicians and the settlers have put paid to that.
The only viable options now left are a one state solution with Jews and Arabs being equal citizens of one united state, Jews and Arabs living in one state but under different laws(apartheid) or the expulsion or extermination of the Arab population.

Only the first one of these guarantees Israelis a long term peaceful existence but you can bet they will try to impose one of the other two much to the Palestinians and their own detriment.
 
goalmole said:
It's a true apartheid situation now in the West Bank.
The Jews live under Israeli civil law while the Palestinians are forced to live under an arbitrary military law administered according to the whim of the Israeli commanders of the time (think camp commandant)


Palestinians can't move in or out of their small communities because they are walled and fenced in with no freedom of movement except with the permission of the Israeli military authorities which is never forthcoming. So they never get to see or meet with relatives who may only be living a mile away because they are separated by a road or a fence or a wall.
These communities are nothing more than large impoverished concentration camps in a sea of affluent Jewish settlements.
The whole situation is designed to make life impossible for the Palestinians so they choose to move away, at which point the Israelis claim that the Palestinians are moving away of their own volition. A voluntary ethnic cleansing, if you will.

It really is a slow, ruthless strangulation of an entire nation and an abomination to humanity.
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Well the choice is, either do it now or wait until the Palestinian population is greater than the Israeli population, the Palestinian population is rising, there is going to have to be some compromises and land swaps on both sides the spot light is now on the West Bank and Gaza and the world has now realised that it can not ignore it any longer
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
Of course they shouldn’t be stealing land, but that doesn’t justify what Hamas did. Torturing people or butchering innocent is not a normal response. Attacking the Israeli army sure. I’d say Hamas made things 1000 times worse for Palestinians by carrying out the attack they did.

Palestinines have a right to retaliate, but not in the way Hamas did it. Surely you agree with that. by that logic Isreal have a right to retaliate as well.

Get rid of Hamas and the Israeli government and that would probably help
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Just out of curiosity how do you think the Palestinians should Retaliate? What's the best way for them to get their land back?
 
Vic said:
I posed a moral case a couple of days ago.

Is anyone who fires a gun at an IDF soldier in south Gaza a Hamas terrorist or just someone defending their home?
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That’s a difficult question. Depends on the scenario and the reasons why. The attack that happened on Isreal definitely wasn’t someone trying to defend themselves. It was a pre planned attack on innocent people.
 
The blue phantom said:
Just out of curiosity how do you think the Palestinians should Retaliate? What's the best way for them to get their land back?
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Hamas Attacking innocent civilians isnt retaliation. I’d argue try and bring in the international community. Focus on peace talks and a possible two state solution. Seems like Hamas and Isreal don’t want that though.

Unless you remove Hamas and the Israeli government you’ll never have a chance at peace.

In terms of the Palestinian people they don’t actually have a government that represents them so I’m unsure what they can actually do right now.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
Of course they shouldn’t be stealing land, but that doesn’t justify what Hamas did. Torturing people or butchering innocent is not a normal response. Attacking the Israeli army sure. I’d say Hamas made things 1000 times worse for Palestinians by carrying out the attack they did.

Palestinines have a right to retaliate, but not in the way Hamas did it. Surely you agree with that. by that logic Isreal have a right to retaliate as well.

Get rid of Hamas and the Israeli government and that would probably help
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Iv already agreed that Hamas are evil. And absolutely nothing justifies what Hamas did. But you take peoples land and everything they have and that will be the response. It always will be. Thats human nature.

And they are not getting rid of Hamas, (You reaally believe this will be the end of these problems then you havent lived long enough) they're instilling the next generation (Whatever they will be called) who will probably resort to wmd of some sort, because when you take everything from your enemy the only thing they have left is your destruction. Thats where its headed. Israel really need to stop taking land. Simple really. I think it would be a good starting point for them to negotiaite giving it back but I believe they're mired in right wing extremism of some sort
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Iv already agreed that Hamas are evil. And absolutely nothing justifies what Hamas did. But you take peoples land and everything they have and that will be the response. It always will be. Thats human nature.
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I don’t agree. I don’t think it is human nature to massacre and torture nearly 2,000 innocent people. Yes Hamas are evil, but that’s not a normal response. It sounds like you are trying to justify it. Attacking the army or the police I can just about understand that.

Last time I checked you don’t see ukranian soldiers marching into Russian towns and butchering thousands of innocent people. Russia took away Ukrainian land and everything people had as well. Completely different response.

Hamas as a government are doing a terrible job. The focus from both sides should be on peace, which seems impossible right now
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Iv already agreed that Hamas are evil. And absolutely nothing justifies what Hamas did. But you take peoples land and everything they have and that will be the response. It always will be. Thats human nature.

And they are not getting rid of Hamas, (You reaally believe this will be the end of these problems then you havent lived long enough) they're instilling the next generation (Whatever they will be called) who will probably resort to wmd of some sort, because when you take everything from your enemy the only thing they have left is your destruction. Thats where its headed. Israel really need to stop taking land. Simple really. I think it would be a good starting point for them to negotiaite giving it back but I believe they're mired in right wing extremism of some sort
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In relation to your first paragraph, are you saying Hamas attacked Israel as the representatives of the people of Gaza?
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
I don’t agree. I don’t think it is human nature to massacre and torture nearly 2,000 innocent people. Yes Hamas are evil, but that’s not a normal response. It sounds like you are trying to justify it. Attacking the army or the police I can just about understand that.

Last time I checked you don’t see ukranian soldiers marching into Russian towns and butchering thousands of innocent people. Russia took away Ukrainian land and everything people had as well. Completely different response.
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Round and round we go.

Simple reaally, you take peoples land and they will fight back, and when they have nothing they will try to destroy you. You know this, we all know it. It needs to stop.

As I asked though, do you really think killing all Hamas will solve the problems? Or that this will go on for another generation?
 
Roachy said:
In relation to your first paragraph, are you saying Hamas attacked Israel as the representatives of the people of Gaza?
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I dont really care tbh. Are they?

I care about stupid stupid leaders and govnerments taking their peoople to war, killing innocents. And being fuelled by the actions of the enemy. Hamas lobbing missiles and murdering Israelis. And Israelis stealing land.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
I don’t agree. I don’t think it is human nature to massacre and torture nearly 2,000 innocent people. Yes Hamas are evil, but that’s not a normal response. It sounds like you are trying to justify it. Attacking the army or the police I can just about understand that.
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I thought it was 1'200?
 
dublinblue12 said:
More chance they found Jimmy Hoffa in there that that brazenly fantastical story they told the BBC and even if they did find a few guns, why not show them evidence of tunnels, hardly worth the slaughter of so many innocent people for an arsenal the equivelent of what you would find in an average American gun nuts shed, never mind the international condemnation of the war crime they so easily committed.
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and for some reason they were forbidden to speak to any doctors whilst at the site - wonder why
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Round and round we go.

Simple reaally, you take peoples land and they will fight back, and when they have nothing they will try to destroy you. You know this, we all know it. It needs to stop.

As I asked though, do you really think killing all Hamas will solve the problems? Or that this will go on for another generation?
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Will go on forever until one side says enough is enough and they want peace and won’t retaliate regardless of what had just happened.

I can’t see that happening with the right wing nut jobs on either side.

I will ask this though, what would we do if we were constantly having our land taken? And if we fought back had our children arrested or worse killed?

I don’t want to think what it’s like in their shoes.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
I dont really care tbh. Are they?

I care about stupid stupid leaders and govnerments taking their peoople to war, killing innocents. And being fuelled by the actions of the enemy. Hamas lobbing missiles and murdering Israelis. And Israelis stealing land.
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Yes or no would have done.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Round and round we go.

Simple reaally, you take peoples land and they will fight back, and when they have nothing they will try to destroy you. You know this, we all know it. It needs to stop.

As I asked though, do you really think killing all Hamas will solve the problems? Or that this will go on for another generation?
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It's been this way for thousands of years. It's not getting solved in a single generation.
 
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