PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[remember arthur mann]

You're not expecting them to give it that level of thought Shirley?

 

[Marklr]

I remember way back when PB told us that at a meeting at the club (2019?) he was told that UEFA had no evidence other than 6 stolen emails. This was greeted by those there with incredulity followed by uproarious laughter. When the matter went before CAS UEFA produced no evidence beyond 6 emails, 2 of which had been doctored. When CAS ruled in our favour the PL was quick to announce that its investigation was not at an end, though it did go rather quiet. Then early last year the PL produced its 115 charges of financial impropriety against our club, the richest (in FFP terms in the world!). A cynic might think that the failure of FFP to halt our path to legitimate riches, not relying on dirty oil money at all, City's wealth must be the result of cheating, MUST BE! PB reported that the new life in the PL's crusade was not in fact driven by Masters and Co, but was the result of pressure, especially from Levy. Tolmie said that his information was that the PL wanted nothing to do with the affair.

All this raises the question of the evidence - if any - which is the basis of the charges, which seem very similar to those brought by UEFA. At that time, despite City's claim that the charges were untrue (completely untrue) there were periodic claims that UEFA's case was proven beyond all doubt, that they had a 'smoking gun' and that this was in the documents provided by City. In the event they had only 6 tatty, stolen emails and there was evidence of doctoring. This does raise the question of what evidence does the PL have which was not available to UEFA, who found it and where did they find it? It is inconceivable that a perusal of our accounts has unearthed over 100 irregularities which had escaped notice (as in the 1906 case!). UEFA could not shake the belief that our accounts were fair and complete and CAS ruled that there was evidence to support any of the charges. I cannot see how the PL/cartel can do any better...

I actually think it's all about how much bad publicity City will get. Even if the PL know they will fail, the damage gets done anyway. It slows down our international growth because people believe all the bs.

 

[Coatigan]

I remember way back when PB told us that at a meeting at the club (2019?) he was told that UEFA had no evidence other than 6 stolen emails. This was greeted by those there with incredulity followed by uproarious laughter. When the matter went before CAS UEFA produced no evidence beyond 6 emails, 2 of which had been doctored. When CAS ruled in our favour the PL was quick to announce that its investigation was not at an end, though it did go rather quiet. Then early last year the PL produced its 115 charges of financial impropriety against our club, the richest (in FFP terms in the world!). A cynic might think that the failure of FFP to halt our path to legitimate riches, not relying on dirty oil money at all, City's wealth must be the result of cheating, MUST BE! PB reported that the new life in the PL's crusade was not in fact driven by Masters and Co, but was the result of pressure, especially from Levy. Tolmie said that his information was that the PL wanted nothing to do with the affair.

All this raises the question of the evidence - if any - which is the basis of the charges, which seem very similar to those brought by UEFA. At that time, despite City's claim that the charges were untrue (completely untrue) there were periodic claims that UEFA's case was proven beyond all doubt, that they had a 'smoking gun' and that this was in the documents provided by City. In the event they had only 6 tatty, stolen emails and there was evidence of doctoring. This does raise the question of what evidence does the PL have which was not available to UEFA, who found it and where did they find it? It is inconceivable that a perusal of our accounts has unearthed over 100 irregularities which had escaped notice (as in the 1906 case!). UEFA could not shake the belief that our accounts were fair and complete and CAS ruled that there was evidence to support any of the charges. I cannot see how the PL/cartel can.

Yeah unfortunately not in the slightest true though, as the CAS verdict published showed.

Not the bit about the charges ultimately being untrue, but the only evidence presented being 6 emails.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I actually think it's all about how much bad publicity City will get. Even if the PL know they will fail, the damage gets done anyway. It slows down our international growth because people believe all the bs.

It hasn't slowed down the club's international growth at all. I get that, in the UK there may be that impression because negativity is everywhere, but internationally this just isn't news to anywhere near the same extent, imho.

 

[BlueFurn]

Ok some scousers haha (half my family are scouse)

No offence intended…
To the decent ones anyway!

 

[Marklr]

It hasn't slowed down the club's international growth at all. I get that, in the UK there may be that impression because negativity is everywhere, but internationally this just isn't news to anywhere near the same extent, imho.

Yeah...we keep marching on. I believe it's the intention, though. They know they can't win, but it's more negative publicity for City.

 

[remember arthur mann]

No offence intended…
To the decent ones anyway!

 

[mancboy]

The problem is that most people confuse the court of public opinion and their own perception with fact and that is where there is a disconnect, there is a huge difference between the red top media and their ilk wanting us to be guilty and it actually being true

 

[Silva61]

Not sure how it'll stop us win/winning though

Take your pick

rival fans seem to think we're the poster boys of the Premier league & have paid off referees via the Saudi League

Please stop worrying about rival fans who think we've paid them off, whoever that might be.
I'd stop watching the game if I thought there was a shred of truth in it.
Most are just bitter knobheads behind a key board.

 

[deano ou812]

Does anyone think that firstly us,then Everton and now supposedly a few more clubs including forest and Villa was it,that there’s a power struggle now coming to a head behind the scenes and certain clubs are taking sides,or am I talking bollocks ..

 

[Silva61]

I actually think it's all about how much bad publicity City will get. Even if the PL know they will fail, the damage gets done anyway. It slows down our international growth because people believe all the bs.

The only thing that has slowed our international growth is covid and SM not putting equity in disguised as sponsorship, in my opinion.

 

[Mancity1980]

You are entitled to your opinion, and of course it’s perfectly possible you are right, but I’ve based my view on a combination of what we have before us evidentially and the absence of any leaks; the parties involved; the likelihood that the club committed fraud on this scale and for such an extended period, especially given the involvement of auditors; the putative absence of any whistleblowers to corroborate the allegations; the protagonists behind the scene - the power they wield, plus their tack record and motives; the pace at which matters have progressed; the noises coming via backchannels from the club; the continued trajectory of players coming to the club, further sponsorship from high profile investors and accelerated infrastructure investment; the previous UEFA charges (and their complete lack of substance) and the fact that Richard Masters is a **** - and concluded that this is the most likely explanation

Not saying it’s nailed on, but fwiw, I’m confident I’m likely to be correct.

I think the fact you believe there is some substance to these allegations based solely on the fact of the charges themselves is exactly what the PL (or rather those that have pressured them) want. As others have said before me, the punishment is the charges. And if a City fan thinks what you think, then it’s clearly working.

Brilliant repose @gordondaviesmoustache. I agree with every word of it and in 20 months time when everyone has the benefit of hindsight this should be reposted as “I told you so” statement.

 

[nmc]

Do you believe the PL categorically know they have absolutely nothing, but are going along with it anyway, knowing fine well they will fail?

I think within the drawn out process and the absence of facts it’s easy to lose perspective but, I’d briefly remind you of these two facts…. In the red corner you have David Gill et al - the architect of the UEFA charges and ban that was comprehensively overturned at CAS due to an embarrassing lack of evidence (one should ask quite how UEFA’s panel could ever find us guilty). And in the blue corner you have our distinguished and highly professional owners… do you really think Khaldoon - has been engineering systematic accounting fraud? Pulled the wool over the eyes of auditors year on year? Convinced our sponsors to also commit fraud and play along; and successfully hoodwinked the extensive due diligence deployed by Silverlake et al. I certainly know where my faith lies but then again if Master’s Gill, Levy or Parry told me it was gonna go dark at night, I’d wait and see.

 

[ancoats]

You do realise how different the two cases are? In both nature and scale, right. As has been shown on this thread a fair few times.

But the charges are the same ones Uefa tried and lost with, so it should be straightforward and just go and look at the report from the CAS court case, Why the Premier League took the bait is beyond me, Was it not simple enough to see the CAS findings was City cleared of any wrongdoings, The only crime was time-barred in working with Uefa in handing over the accounts, Again Uefa Knew they Fuck up and you think we would be allowed to win the Champions League after the CAS rulings

it's just mudding our name, the numpties red tops fans love the 115 charges to dampen the Knockout blow we have given them, How many texts or post on social media and the internet do us City fans get with the 115 changes,
it worked a treat by the scum fans making them forget the shit club they supported in the glory years

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Brilliant repose @gordondaviesmoustache. I agree with every word of it and in 20 months time when everyone has the benefit of hindsight this should be reposted as “I told you so” statement.

Apart from the fact I meant to put antagonists and put protagonists instead!

 

[Marklr]

The only thing that has slowed our international growth is covid and SM not putting equity in disguised as sponsorship, in my opinion.

I'm happy with the rate of international growth. It's impressive watching vids of massive supporter groups from all over the world. That's WITH the bad publicity.

 

[Innsbruckblue]

Does anyone think that firstly us,then Everton and now supposedly a few more clubs including forest and Villa was it,that there’s a power struggle now coming to a head behind the scenes and certain clubs are taking sides,or am I talking bollocks ..

Been thinking this for a while now

 

[ancoats]

Does anyone think that firstly us,then Everton and now supposedly a few more clubs including forest and Villa was it,that there’s a power struggle now coming to a head behind the scenes and certain clubs are taking sides,or am I talking bollocks ..

It's all about the Super League the Big scum clubs are up and running with in the background behind their backs,
Villa Everton Forest and the rest will be all left behind to defend for themselves without Tv money

The clubs that voted for the Premier League back in 1992 took the United/SKY money and bent over and let utd fuck them over and over again but they got well paid for it, Now this so-called Super League will show the so-called little clubs that scum red top did not care about them after all

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I remember way back when PB told us that at a meeting at the club (2019?) he was told that UEFA had no evidence other than 6 stolen emails. This was greeted by those there with incredulity followed by uproarious laughter. When the matter went before CAS UEFA produced no evidence beyond 6 emails, 2 of which had been doctored. When CAS ruled in our favour the PL was quick to announce that its investigation was not at an end, though it did go rather quiet. Then early last year the PL produced its 115 charges of financial impropriety against our club, the richest (in FFP terms in the world!). A cynic might think that the failure of FFP to halt our path to legitimate riches, not relying on dirty oil money at all, City's wealth must be the result of cheating, MUST BE! PB reported that the new life in the PL's crusade was not in fact driven by Masters and Co, but was the result of pressure, especially from Levy. Tolmie said that his information was that the PL wanted nothing to do with the affair.

All this raises the question of the evidence - if any - which is the basis of the charges, which seem very similar to those brought by UEFA. At that time, despite City's claim that the charges were untrue (completely untrue) there were periodic claims that UEFA's case was proven beyond all doubt, that they had a 'smoking gun' and that this was in the documents provided by City. In the event they had only 6 tatty, stolen emails and there was evidence of doctoring. This does raise the question of what evidence does the PL have which was not available to UEFA, who found it and where did they find it? It is inconceivable that a perusal of our accounts has unearthed over 100 irregularities which had escaped notice (as in the 1906 case!). UEFA could not shake the belief that our accounts were fair and complete and CAS ruled that there was evidence to support any of the charges. I cannot see how the PL/cartel can do any better...

Just to be clear, the emails were the grounds, rather than the evidence, on which UEFA justified undertaking its investigation, which CAS felt was justified. There were other stories, including the Mancini contract, the Fordham image rights payments (which UEFA already knew about) and a few other things. Generally speaking, it requires a reasonable suspicion that rules or laws have been broken for an investigation and requesting evidence to take place, and the Der Spiegel articles provided that.

What they then did was ask us for the full email chains and any other pertinent documents. This is where the disputes over cooperation started, as our legal advisers resisted some of these requests, on the grounds that they weren't pertinent or relevant. In effect, it was a 'fishing expedition'. CAS actually questioned why UEFA didn't hold out for some emails they thought they were entitled to, and brought the charges before they had those.

We didn't provide some documents that we later supplied to CAS however. You'd have to wonder why we chose that course of actio and whether UEFA would have not gone ahead with the referral of the case to the Adjudicatory Chamber if we had provided those. We don't know the legal details though so it is pure speculation.

What we do know is that the AC found against us, and issued the 2-season ban, which was overturned by CAS, who did have all the evidence.

The PL likewise can only act based on a reasonable suspicion that we've broken rules and the emails gave them that. But unless we've given the PL's lawyers something that we didn't give to UEFA or CAS, then they're unlikely to be any more succesful than UEFA were.

 

[bluemanchester]

I have always maintained CAS took about 15 minutes after starting the hearing to clear us. (Take no notice of the 2-1 majority, the 1 was UEFAs paid member of the commitee).
The more it goes on and City present the third party info to the panel I get the feeling that the panel will not even go to a hearing. The pressure on them to deliver a guilty verdict after reading all City's comprehensive evidence will be enormous and the repercussions even more so if they come back with a guilty verdict without being able to show why. But then I've followed City that long I worry about Huddersfield this weekend;-)