Question Time

[Bodicoteblue]

That Bim fella. How the fuck do people like him get elected!!!

Not long now mate.
Soon people like him will not be getting elected.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Bloke in the audience asking why aren’t we looking at stopping the so called boat people coming through Europe? Well we left the EU do why the fuck should the Europeans give a shit?

I have made this exact point since leaving was suggested. If you are part of a collective like the EU then you all work COLLECTIVELY. Leaving the EU ( and thus Dublin 3 cos Frosty the Showman never addressed that ) then an EU facing migration would happily move migrants on to non-EU states if it suited them to do so. Whether it was to Morocco - Egypt or the UK matters not to them but of course that was Project Fear. Someone could come through a country that lays a red carpet all their way and feeds them caviar and champagne when on their journey they are still not obliged to stay there - that could be a way to speed their passage through the country in question

 

[Bodicoteblue]

I have made this exact point since leaving was suggested. If you are part of a collective like the EU then you all work COLLECTIVELY. Leaving the EU ( and thus Dublin 3 cos Frosty the Showman never addressed that ) then an EU facing migration would happily move migrants on to non-EU states if it suited them to do so. Whether it was to Morocco - Egypt or the UK matters not to them but of course that was Project Fear. Someone could come through a country that lays a red carpet all their way and feeds them caviar and champagne when on their journey they are still not obliged to stay there - that could be a way to speed their passage through the country in question

A classic case of ‘knowing what you voted for’

 

[bluethrunthru]

Bim whatshisname showing that Tories just see everything through the prism of money. Answer to NHS dentistry crisis? We will chuck a bit more money at it......... private dentistry firms doing ok out of dealing with private patients thank you very much - we are not interested. Currently blaming it on Covid - fucking laughable

 

[Vic]

Bloke in the audience asking why aren’t we looking at stopping the so called boat people coming through Europe? Well we left the EU do why the fuck should the Europeans give a shit?

No-one pointed out that they come through Europe to reach Britain because they want to come to Britain - unlike the many more who would rather go to other European countries (either because they don't want to risk their lives in the Channel or just because Britain isn't the best place to be).

 

[bluethrunthru]

No-one pointed out that they come through Europe to reach Britain because they want to come to Britain - unlike the many more who would rather go to other European countries (either because they don't want to risk their lives in the Channel or just because Britain isn't the best place to be).

yes we did but got labelled project fear

 

[I'm With Stupid]

That Bim fella. How the fuck do people like him get elected!!!

Eton > Oxford > Tories

The same route as the rest of them. As long as there's such a thing as safe seats, the Tories can continue to just hand seats to well-connected toffs with no issues.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That Bim fella. How the fuck do people like him get elected!!!

go to Eton?

He's doing well though.
Predecessor - 20k majority
First Dim Bim election - 12k majority
Second Dim Bim election - <7k majority

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

go to Eton?

He's doing well though.
Predecessor - 20k majority
First Dim Bim election - 12k majority
Second Dim Bim election - <7k majority

Seemingly without a clue that the voter base he’s trying to appeal to, with the England for the English mentality, that, if they ever ’stopped the boats’, which people(s) they’d be gunning for next.….

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Bloke in the audience asking why aren’t we looking at stopping the so called boat people coming through Europe? Well we left the EU do why the fuck should the Europeans give a shit?

Another sap who thinks that they actually want to stop the boats! Most people seem clueless that the people on small boats are less than 4% of migrants but are entirely to blame for NHS waiting lists, no houses, no GP appointments and overcrowded class rooms, along with no teachers, nurses, doctors, shit trains, high bills and shit in the water. It’s performative nonsense that is sadly all too typical of this shower we’ve got in charge but keeping boats and Rwanda on the front pages keeps everything else off them.

 

[bluethrunthru]

What difference would being in the eu make with stopping boats coming to the uk? EU countries don’t move migrants to non eu states. A lot of countries such as Italy, France and others are in a complete mess with it and have much higher numbers of people and that’s within the eu.

This is a worldwide issue- the eu and most other countries can’t seem to deal with it.

I clearly need to point it out again - IN the EU as a member state we were also in the DUBLIN 3 agreement. Under that we were entitled to return any failed asylum seekers to France (and other countries). We left - we were told nothing would change. Some fucking idiots believed that - the often used quote was that we would cancel our gym membership in the belief we could still access all its facilities. We cannot.

So - google a time line of boat crossings. You will see that they rose exponentially after the referendum result. Why? Because the USP for the people smugglers became -

"you need to go to the UK if you want to but do it now because once you are on UK soil you can claim asylum because the daft cunts have left Dublin 3 and can't send you back"

Italy /France/Greece always had a bigger issue than us - they took more in - but of course the divvies here believed the lies that we were the ones who were most affected. All this is not hard to learn / find - I did it pre-referendum so I understood the disaster we were embarking on I assume you still haven't done so.

 

[Vic]

Another sap who thinks that they actually want to stop the boats! Most people seem clueless that the people on small boats are less than 4% of migrants but are entirely to blame for NHS waiting lists, no houses, no GP appointments and overcrowded class rooms, along with no teachers, nurses, doctors, shit trains, high bills and shit in the water. It’s performative nonsense that is sadly all too typical of this shower we’ve got in charge but keeping boats and Rwanda on the front pages keeps everything else off them.

Except the polls say that not even Tory voters think that stopping the boats is the main election issue and most don't think the Rwanda policy is a good idea. People are still blaming the Tories for the state of the country.

 

[BrianW]

The fact is that the people in boats make up only a small proportion of immigrants. The Tories have issued over one million visas in the past year for people to work and/or study here. Ergo, in principle, they approve of immigration or at least think it is necessary. (Either explanation may be valid. It would be quite possible to disagree with immigration but concede it is necessary for economic and social reasons.)

This BS about Rwanda is simply a distraction. If you seriously want to control immigration, set a maximum figure. Say, for the sake of argument, 200,000. Then deduct asylum seekers from the number - say 50,000 or whatever it is. So you limit visas to 150,000 and give them to the people we need most, like doctors, nurses and dentists.

That might be economically damaging - I don't have the data to say - but it would definitely 'control' immigration. The thing is, it's entirely in the Government's power to adopt such a solution, and there would be no question of illegality.

 

[inbetween]

The fact is that the people in boats make up only a small proportion of immigrants. The Tories have issued over one million visas in the past year for people to work and/or study here. Ergo, in principle, they approve of immigration or at least think it is necessary. (Either explanation may be valid. It would be quite possible to disagree with immigration but concede it is necessary for economic and social reasons.)

This BS about Rwanda is simply a distraction. If you seriously want to control immigration, set a maximum figure. Say, for the sake of argument, 200,000. Then deduct asylum seekers from the number - say 50,000 or whatever it is. So you limit visas to 150,000 and give them to the people we need most, like doctors, nurses and dentists.

That might be economically damaging - I don't have the data to say - but it would definitely 'control' immigration. The thing is, it's entirely in the Government's power to adopt such a solution, and there would be no question of illegality.

As you say the illegal aspect of immigration is a small proportion but something needs to be done urgently purely because of the costs involved. The Rwanda solution just masks the simple problem which is the system is wrongly built to ensure that claims take as long as possible. However this involves massive costs, but hotels, barges and flights to Rwanda are not required if the claims process is 10x faster. Most claims are accepted so it isn't like it matters in the grand scheme of the statistics. Why not just speed the process up?

With immigration generally I don't think we have enough people coming in, or certainly we don't have enough of the right kind of people coming in. There is a massive skills shortage and yet immigration is at its greatest so clearly something isn't working. This is probably explained by the simple fact that the majority of the skilled and jobs element of migration came from the EU but that route is now firmly closed. Most immigrants now come via family links and that doesn't really address any particular job or skills shortage.

The biggest problem when it comes to immigration is the generalisation of it within politics but that's because politicians are more interested in elections and polling. With immigration there's always either too much of it or not enough and that eventually ends with an argument on racism instead. An honest conversation is needed, not on illegal immigrants but on immigration as a whole. We need to address what is needed, how do we get there, and where is the system flawed to stop that happening.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Except the polls say that not even Tory voters don't think stopping the boats is the main election issue and most don't think the Rwanda policy is a good idea. People are still blaming the Tories for the state of the country.

Absolutely right but the echo chamber the conservatives are currently inhabiting will not inform them of such.

 

[BrianW]

As you say the illegal aspect of immigration is a small proportion but something needs to be done urgently purely because of the costs involved. The Rwanda solution just masks the simple problem which is the system is wrongly built to ensure that claims take as long as possible. However this involves massive costs, but hotels, barges and flights to Rwanda are not required if the claims process is 10x faster. Most claims are accepted so it isn't like it matters in the grand scheme of the statistics. Why not just speed the process up?

With immigration generally I don't think we have enough people coming in, or certainly we don't have enough of the right kind of people coming in. There is a massive skills shortage and yet immigration is at its greatest so clearly something isn't working. This is probably explained by the simple fact that the majority of the skilled and jobs element of migration came from the EU but that route is now firmly closed. Most immigrants now come via family links and that doesn't really address any particular job or skills shortage.

The biggest problem when it comes to immigration is the generalisation of it within politics but that's because politicians are more interested in elections and polling. With immigration there's always either too much of it or not enough and that eventually ends with an argument on racism instead. An honest conversation is needed, not on illegal immigrants but on immigration as a whole. We need to address what is needed, how do we get there, and where is the system flawed to stop that happening.

But the Government issues the visas! And decides how many, and on what criteria they are issued!

The 'logic' of Brexit was that in future we would choose the people we needed. They could be from the EU or anywhere. It's up to the Government, and if the system they have set up gives us 'the wrong type' of immigrant, that is their fault.

The truth is the pre-Brexit set-up worked much better. But we threw it away for reasons of xenophobia and nativism that (frankly) disgust me. However, that does not mean immigration cannot be managed effectively if there is a will to do it. The power is entirely in the hands of the Government. It has never been more so. The truth is that successive UK Governments have proved to be shit at running things, although very good at spouting bollocks.

 

[Vic]

But the Government issues the visas! And decides how many, and on what criteria they are issued!

The 'logic' of Brexit was that in future we would choose the people we needed. They could be from the EU or anywhere. It's up to the Government, and if the system they have set up gives us 'the wrong type' of immigrant, that is their fault.

The truth is the pre-Brexit set-up worked much better. But we threw it away for reasons of xenophobia and nativism that (frankly) disgust me. However, that does not mean immigration cannot be managed effectively if there is a will to do it. The power is entirely in the hands of the Government. It has never been more so. The truth is that successive UK Governments have proved to be shit at running things, although very good at spouting bollocks.

And all the "we haven't got the infrastructure / housing" for all these immigrants - if we don't have immigrants, the construction industry will collapse.

And a reminder re "Britain is full" - Rwanda is more densely populated than Britain.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

As you say the illegal aspect of immigration is a small proportion but something needs to be done urgently purely because of the costs involved. The Rwanda solution just masks the simple problem which is the system is wrongly built to ensure that claims take as long as possible. However this involves massive costs, but hotels, barges and flights to Rwanda are not required if the claims process is 10x faster. Most claims are accepted so it isn't like it matters in the grand scheme of the statistics. Why not just speed the process up?

Because they don't want to speed the process up. They want to deliberately make it as difficult and painful as possible. Remember, this is a party where one MP wanted to remove cartoons from the walls in an asylum centre for unaccompanied children because it was too welcoming. They could set up a processing centre in France, but that would make it easier to claim asylum, and that's the last thing they want.

With immigration generally I don't think we have enough people coming in, or certainly we don't have enough of the right kind of people coming in. There is a massive skills shortage and yet immigration is at its greatest so clearly something isn't working.

I think the latest figures are a bit of a (deliberate) misnomer though. They include, for example, thousands of students who put off coming to the UK to study during the pandemic (remember, China was the last country to open up, and they are by far the biggest group of international students). The reality is that despite what certain people would like to think, the vast majority of these people have no interest in settling in the UK and will leave at the end of their studies. And those who do stay will by definition be educated, working age people.

 

[domalino]

Because they don't want to speed the process up. They want to deliberately make it as difficult and painful as possible. Remember, this is a party where one MP wanted to remove cartoons from the walls in an asylum centre for unaccompanied children because it was too welcoming. They could set up a processing centre in France, but that would make it easier to claim asylum, and that's the last thing they want.


I think the latest figures are a bit of a (deliberate) misnomer though. They include, for example, thousands of students who put off coming to the UK to study during the pandemic (remember, China was the last country to open up, and they are by far the biggest group of international students). The reality is that despite what certain people would like to think, the vast majority of these people have no interest in settling in the UK and will leave at the end of their studies. And those who do stay will by definition be educated, working age people.

This article explains perfectly why the 750,000 number that the tories have seemingly run with as their vote winner is really a bollocks number that will be forgotten in a few years.

Why are the latest net migration figures not a reliable guide to future trends? - Migration Observatory

This report examines how different types of immigration contribute to net migration in the long term, and what levels of net migration the UK might expect in coming years.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

TLDR - Every single time there is a sudden spike in immigration, emitgration catches up a year or 2 later and the net rate goes back to normal.

Also you can see in this figure how 90% of visas are for study or family (most of which are the family of the students)

 

[I'm With Stupid]

This article explains perfectly why the 750,000 number that the tories have seemingly run with as their vote winner is really a bollocks number that will be forgotten in a few years.

Why are the latest net migration figures not a reliable guide to future trends? - Migration Observatory

This report examines how different types of immigration contribute to net migration in the long term, and what levels of net migration the UK might expect in coming years.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

TLDR - Every single time there is a sudden spike in immigration, emitgration catches up a year or 2 later and the net rate goes back to normal.

Also you can see in this figure how 90% of visas are for study or family (most of which are the family of the students)

Why are so many students bringing their family, just out of interest? I'm studying at the moment, and I'm pretty sure most of my classmates (at master's level, so older) haven't brought family over.

But yeah, if they make a huge deal about the current migration figures, they can then claim to have tackled them when they completely naturally revert to normal. Kind of like they did with inflation. It's going to come down anyway, so if we make a big song and dance about what we're doing to solve it, we can then take credit for it. They might as well take the credit for the rain stopping.

ETA: just looked it up and figures from Suella Braverman (so take that for what it's worth) suggest that 136,000 family visas were issued to students studying in the UK. Out of 477,000 student visas. Now I know that some people might bring more than one dependent, but this suggests that basically one in four students is bringing family over. Sorry, but that sounds like absolute bullshit to me. For a start, the vast majority of international students are Chinese kids, and they're simply not coming over with family. It says that 16,000 family visas from students were granted in 2019. So either it's bullshit or someone's gaming the system. But a more than eight-fold increase in a couple of years suggests that they don't have a handle on the issue at all.