Rishi Sunak

I submit that out of total government spending, the amount paid to those who 'won't work' is trivial. You must also consider that many in that category are unemployable, and would cost an absolute fortune in things like drug rehabilitation and education to make them suitable for even the lowliest work.

To live in a civilised society is costly, but the alternative is far worse. Taxes are very low in Somalia, for example, but the lifestyle is pretty shit.

BTW, I would be very happy to cut spending on some stuff, but the things I would cut would have the right up in arms.

I’d wager you’re wrong on this. £1.5-2bn is “lost” due to legal tax avoidance (such as Sunak) whereas benefit fraud is over £6bn. That’s outright fraud not overpayments from accidental errors by claimant or government.

A civilised society is one where everyone does their bit to support those that can’t - and that doesn’t just mean the rich paying more.
 
He’s obviously set the narrative that everything that has happened in the last 14 years is all Labours fault. Gove telling us that the homes that have not been built, is Labours fault. Then goes on to say that their plan, which the Tories are now using to support their narrative, is not a plan at all and this is the same in all areas. ‘Square one, Labour have no plan’.

It’s fucking tedious and while they keep lying to protect their own fucking arses, we lose out as a country as they further fail to deliver anything meaningful.
Our local Tories have put out a leaflet (presumably using Central Office notes) that they've halved inflation to 4.6% "giving businesses and residents certainty of stable prices". Stably still going up?
 
If his tax payments are in line with the law, which they are, then I don’t see the problem.

If you don’t like the fact that he’s rich, then that’s another issue altogether.

The cretins on Twitter posting his tax return and people reposting it simply don’t like rich people. It’s the politics of envy, nothing more.
Good. The more people envy the rich, the more they will vote other than Tory.

Seems perfectly sensible, not cretinous.
 
Our local Tories have put out a leaflet (presumably using Central Office notes) that they've halved inflation to 4.6% "giving businesses and residents certainty of stable prices". Stably still going up?
Firstly, they didn’t take credit for inflation going through the roof, so how can they take credit for bringing it down? And, as you say, it’s still a huge inflationary figure that is adversely affecting those with the least.

I can’t see how any of their bullshit will have an effect on the electorate, but if it does, and somehow they make a show of it, I’m getting the fuck out of here as it will prove that we’re officially insane.
 
I’d wager you’re wrong on this. £1.5-2bn is “lost” due to legal tax avoidance (such as Sunak) whereas benefit fraud is over £6bn. That’s outright fraud not overpayments from accidental errors by claimant or government.

A civilised society is one where everyone does their bit to support those that can’t - and that doesn’t just mean the rich paying more.
Why are you comparing legal tax avoidance (£2bn) with tax fraud (£34bn)?
 
I’d wager you’re wrong on this. £1.5-2bn is “lost” due to legal tax avoidance (such as Sunak) whereas benefit fraud is over £6bn. That’s outright fraud not overpayments from accidental errors by claimant or government.

A civilised society is one where everyone does their bit to support those that can’t - and that doesn’t just mean the rich paying more.
15billion ppe fraud written off, 16 billion fraudulent covid loans written off, tax revenue lost due to legal avoidance schemes 32 billion
 
You’re numbers are way off on legal tax avoidance per year
This ‘legal tax avoidance’, does that mean that they have instigated laws that allow people to have the option to pay it, or not?

So, morally they should be looking to pay the full revenue, legally they’ve been given the option not to?

And that’s how our system works, the PM of our country, and probably most of those who take the most out, ‘chose’ to keep that for themselves instead of aiding the system that they are supposed to protect?

I suppose my couple of grand a month is nowhere near what these people pay, and I don’t mind at all as it goes to helping those who are making the step on the ladder.

However, I don’t have a choice in this matter and I’m not sat at the top, taking the major share of the wealth. When you think of how much they’re taking out, choosing not to pay should tell you all you need to know what they think of you.
 
  • 3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error
  • 1.4% (£3.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error
  • the net loss to the Department for Work and Pensions, after accounting for recoveries, was 3.1% (£7.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure



'This year’s Tax Gap, covering the 2020-2021 financial year, stands at £32bn, or 5.1% of tax liabilities. This is down from £34.4bn the previous year, which was also 5.1% of tax liabilities.

The amount of the Tax Gap resulting from fraud has increased from 43.7% to 45%, with the Tax Fraud Gap standing at £14.4bn.'



So comparing like with like:


Benefit fraud and error: - 7.3 billion.

Tax fraud (not legal avoidance):- 14.4 billion. (In an earlier financial year.)

Which is a bigger problem?

If we somehow eliminated both, that gives us almost 22 billion. Against total central government expenditure of about 99 billion. (2023)
 
  • 3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error
  • 1.4% (£3.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error
  • the net loss to the Department for Work and Pensions, after accounting for recoveries, was 3.1% (£7.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure



'This year’s Tax Gap, covering the 2020-2021 financial year, stands at £32bn, or 5.1% of tax liabilities. This is down from £34.4bn the previous year, which was also 5.1% of tax liabilities.

The amount of the Tax Gap resulting from fraud has increased from 43.7% to 45%, with the Tax Fraud Gap standing at £14.4bn.'



So comparing like with like:


Benefit fraud and error: - 7.3 billion.

Tax fraud (not legal avoidance):- 14.4 billion. (In an earlier financial year.)

Which is a bigger problem?

If we somehow eliminated both, that gives us almost 22 billion. Against total central government expenditure of about 99 billion. (2023)
This doesn't include the cost of dodgy PPE contracts to Tory donors and mates, plus other corporate welfare, subsidies to train companies to pay dividends and fund losses, subsidies to Tata Steel who take the money and run, or £600m to clean up freeport in Teesside in order to give it away.

The Tory scum and their corporate chums are creaming off incredible amounts of cash from the public purse while they still can and pointing at small boats and welfare fraud to distract the public from the industrial scale fraud and looting that is going on.
 
Maybe so but why do you think it's fair that that someone pays a higher percentage just because they earn more
Because the person isn't doing the earning. Their wealth is earning, which is based upon an accumulation of wealth earning over several years, rather than the average person who is unable to accumulate wealth at such a rate because they have to use their income to survive.

But you knew that.
 
Clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about because the lowest earners have a very low average tax rate due in large part to the steady and significant increases in personal allowances implemented by George Osborne.
George fucking Osborne who effectively ripped out the entire public sector in lieu of a grown up investment in economic recovery like the rest of the developed world.

Look around at the state of the UK now and it's all attributable to the austerity economics of Osborne. And before you mention Labour and the credit crunch, reflect on every other country's recovery from the US triggered international calamity.
 
Sunak tax bill is entirely legal. Ergo it’s legal tax avoidance.

Are you this stupid in real life?
I'll ignore the last bit, as I guess you've missed the point.

You introduced benefit fraud into the discussion (why?).The tax gap between what HMRC thinks they should get and what is actually received is around £30bn a year, of which criminal tax fraud may be around £5bn.

Sunak's tax avoidance arrangements may well be legal, but who sets the laws that allow avoidance schemes?
 
  • 3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error
  • 1.4% (£3.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error
  • the net loss to the Department for Work and Pensions, after accounting for recoveries, was 3.1% (£7.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure



'This year’s Tax Gap, covering the 2020-2021 financial year, stands at £32bn, or 5.1% of tax liabilities. This is down from £34.4bn the previous year, which was also 5.1% of tax liabilities.

The amount of the Tax Gap resulting from fraud has increased from 43.7% to 45%, with the Tax Fraud Gap standing at £14.4bn.'



So comparing like with like:


Benefit fraud and error: - 7.3 billion.

Tax fraud (not legal avoidance):- 14.4 billion. (In an earlier financial year.)

Which is a bigger problem?

If we somehow eliminated both, that gives us almost 22 billion. Against total central government expenditure of about 99 billion. (2023)
What he said!
 
  • 3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error
  • 1.4% (£3.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error
  • the net loss to the Department for Work and Pensions, after accounting for recoveries, was 3.1% (£7.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure



'This year’s Tax Gap, covering the 2020-2021 financial year, stands at £32bn, or 5.1% of tax liabilities. This is down from £34.4bn the previous year, which was also 5.1% of tax liabilities.

The amount of the Tax Gap resulting from fraud has increased from 43.7% to 45%, with the Tax Fraud Gap standing at £14.4bn.'



So comparing like with like:


Benefit fraud and error: - 7.3 billion.

Tax fraud (not legal avoidance):- 14.4 billion. (In an earlier financial year.)

Which is a bigger problem?

If we somehow eliminated both, that gives us almost 22 billion. Against total central government expenditure of about 99 billion. (2023)

Government expenditure of £99bn? Not sure what that relates to - we spend more on benefits than that.

The tax gap is the sum of everything the government thinks it would have received if standard rates of tax were applied and didn’t and breaks down like this:

The largest is £20bn from small businesses not paying their taxes correctly - a bit of cash in hand here, paying their staff cash in hand, a bit of charge you VAT and not pass it on. That sort of thing. We’ve all been quoted a cash figure before.

Criminals £4.1bn - likely smuggled goods such as fags and booze, perfumes etc and then being sold down the market.

Large businesses £3.9bn - these probably stem from trying to exploit the tax system - the government has clamped down on these in recent years and had quite a lot of success.

Mid size businesses £3.8bn - similar to large businesses.

Non wealth individuals- £2.1bn more cash in hand work.

Wealthy individuals £1.7bn - trying to hide their cash offshore or whatever - again the government has had a lot of success in recent years targeting this group.

Benefit fraud (fraud, not error, I deliberately excluded error from my numbers) stands per my post at ~£6bn

Legal tax avoidance stands at below £2bn (last was £1.7bn)

So the biggest problems (not the only but biggest) are paying folk cash in hand and benefit fraud. Those two alone stand at over £26bn. It’s funny people want to tar and feather Sunak for paying the legal amount of tax or demand the rich pay more but as soon as someone mentions benefit fraud or those that do cash in hand work - you know, our neighbours, part of the 99% in this country - people want to enter a game of whataboutery. You excluded because you’re actually a fairly decent and balanced poster.

This country is heading head long in to a fiscal crisis with the working population dwindling and drains on our budget (pensions) going skywards. The workers are going to rightly be questioning us FOC… so I need to pay more tax to fund your retirement and I can’t afford to get on the housing ladder (even less now due to having less cash due to increased tax) because you’re all sitting on the housing stock. We’re gonna be the first to go come the revolution.

Everyone needs to do their bit now and there is likely something a lot of us can do differently to help.
 
I'll ignore the last bit, as I guess you've missed the point.

You introduced benefit fraud into the discussion (why?).The tax gap between what HMRC thinks they should get and what is actually received is around £30bn a year, of which criminal tax fraud may be around £5bn.

Sunak's tax avoidance arrangements may well be legal, but who sets the laws that allow avoidance schemes?

Per my reply to @BrianW

In terms of why do dividends have different tax brackets to wages? Not sure when the tax law was introduced on this or by who - it’s been around for decades in one form or another. It is desgined to encourage people to invest in companies - it’s one way a company generates cash to invest in new factories or projects to employ more people as an example of why this is a good thing for all of us. The alternative is to dissuade people from holding shares, share prices will take a hit. It’s a sensible tax and it’s only marginally under salary tax rates..
 
Because they can often afford it and because it helps the nation as a whole. - I realise the concept of helping people other than themselves might be lost on some.
The highest earners would still be helping others - many, many people - even if it was a flat rate of tax. Sunak’s half a million tax bill proves that.

It seems to me that people who expect only ‘the rich’ to pay higher taxes are the ones who are refusing to face the new fiscal reality and the need for everybody to make a larger contribution.
 

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