737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[hampshireblue]

Lol don't be so ridiculous

Well he is a training captain-what's your qualification?

With today's level of automation which he refers to, it's perfectly possible. It's highly likely that as long as the FMC is correctly programmed the actual controls would require no further input even to the point of the aircraft stopping on the runway.

 

[inbetween]

Verbalize
Verify
Monitor

Verbalize what you’re going to do.
Verify that it gets done.
Monitor the result.

One of the biggest problems with newer aircraft is that they’re so smart you can be lulled into a state of complacency or false security. “Children of the magenta line” is the derogatory term used for those pilots who grew up with automation and have barely “flown-flown” aircraft, let alone aircraft without any automation.

It used to be that flying without any automation was normal and that as you progressed up the industry ladder, the aircraft became more automated and you enjoyed the relief.

Today, new pilots learn to fly (fully) automated aircraft that have programming requirements and the knowledge of how to takeoff and land. For those pilots, automation has been the norm, and any step down in automation borders on an emergency.

Indeed, there is currently a big push in aviation for pilots to be more proficient hand-flyers whenever possible and to save the full-up automation for when it’s needed.

This ensures proficiency and currency, while allowing each pilot to emphasize the skills they’re supposed to be using on the Flight Deck: Pilot Flying and Pilot Monitoring.

Lastly, there is a new initiative called FLIGHT PATH FIRST, which is designed to make certain both pilots are focused PRIMARILY on the fact that the aircraft is going exactly WHERE you want it to go HOW you want it to get there.

That might sound basic, but modern aircraft have multiple different modes of flight and ensuring the aircraft is doing what you want, in the mode you want, is not as straightforward as one might think, especially when turning automation on and off.

For instance, as an automated aircraft reaches its cruising altitude, it switches from CLIMB to CRUISE mode, then DESCENT as you approach your destination. They’re completely different and programmed differently.

e.g. If I was climbing without automation (hand-flying) the aircraft would be in one mode (basically manual mode, with the pilot determining speed & altitude), but if I reached 25,000 feet while climbing to 30,000 feet, and hit “AUTOPILOT” to take me the rest of the way, it might be pre-programmed at a different speed than I was flying. That then automatically pushes the nose down (to get faster) or pulls it up (to climb at a slower speed, if I was already at CLIMB thrust).

Conversely, you could have been asked by ATC to climb at 2,000 feet per minute or greater to avoid other traffic. When you hit VERTICAL SPEED and dial in 2000fpm, your speed can dramatically drop off, because you were climbing at CLIMB thrust using the VNAV (automated prompts) as your guide.

In short, it’s a very dynamic environment and one ATC request or one pilot’s choice of flight mode can change those dynamics in ways you may not have wanted or expected, requiring constant adjustment and/or correction.

The goal of a good flight crew is to make all of those machinations that are going on behind the scenes feel seamless to you and to never happen without both (all 3 or 4?) pilots understanding EXACTLY what the Pilot Flying is asking the aircraft to do (Verbalize & Verify) and then making sure it is doing it as intended (Monitor).

All of that is merely to say it becomes MUCH easier to just turn the automation on at a low altitude (the 787 autopilot can be turned on at 200 feet above the ground) and, if you so choose, not turn it off until after conducting an automated landing!

BUT, that “easier” causes skills decay and muscle memory atrophy, not to mention a level of complacency that must be overcome when the automation might not be available due to a malfunction…which is why I usually hand fly up yo 18,000’ and down from about 10,000’ depending on the arrival. Some places, like São Paulo do so much controlling of aircraft, it’s often easier to hand fly the descent than constantly be changing flight modes, while Heathrow has a thing called a Constant Descent Angle arrival that’s much easier to accomplish with automation.

What was the question, again???
(Apologies to those that lost interest and didn’t get this far to read the apology!!)

Great post!

A major contribution I've seen is the easing out of the military heirarchy, as you will know this was a big problem years ago when a significant number of pilots were ex-military and cockpits were operated like a long day at Sandhurst. This is a really bad combination given the lack of automation and far greater number of decisions to make. Modern fuel systems are the best example of the benefits of automation. Fuel systems now mostly operate automatically whereas in the past you needed a 3rd guy to manage it manually. Another person, more decisions, bad culture, a lot can go wrong.

There is a happy balance I think between both worlds, automation is extremely useful in reducing workload but then pilots need to understand what's happening and also know how to get the most out of it. That comes down to experience and training which for me is where most gains will now be found on safety. Sorry I'm biased because that's where I work :). A lack of training was of course a significant contributor to the MAX crashes.

It's really interesting to me how even football teams can draw parallels between how cockpits have come to operate and change over the years. Football teams used to be run like the military model with one manager or chairman who tells everybody what to do. However now they're far more open to challenge and there is a focus on putting the team ahead of individuals, city today would never buy a star player with an ego.

Pep to me isn't a crazy genius, he does have great ideas obviously but he also has a very good team of people behind him and they all work very well together without any heirarchy of decision making. I really believe that if the cleaner came to Pep with a good idea then he would go with it. If you can get all of those people motivated behind one goal then they're unstoppable.

 

[hampshireblue]

MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.

AF447-228 dead thanks to poor training of the pilots.

 

[inbetween]

MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.

We can always return to the dumb aircraft of old which were far more complicated to operate, were of comparatively less quality (aircraft were designed on paper until the 80s!) and had unavoidable quirks that could kill you on a bad day. The statistics more than prove this because years ago more crashes happened with less aircraft in the air, today it's the opposite.

MCAS is a poorly designed system because it critically depends upon something which has a single point of failure. Boeing will have no choice but to put this right. I don't know how they are putting it right but that's fine because unlike before everybody is well aware of how MCAS behaves and what to do when it misbehaves. If this misbehaviour couldn't be mitigated through training then the aircraft would not be allowed to fly full stop.

There are many checklist drills that pilots must perform (often by memory alone) and these exist because yes things do go wrong. The impact of the MCAS system should of been on that list but it wasn't. So you could argue is the system itself at fault or just the way the system is operated? From a safety point of view it's both.

This is the holes in swiss cheese.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Lol don't be so ridiculous

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.

The REAL problem was MCAS never said “Hi!” in the Flight Manual, so when it showed up, no-one knew what it was!

Now we know, no problem!

It’s not the super intelligence of the aircraft but the lack of intelligence of the idiots who thought they could hide it to avoid sim training and $$$$ to operators.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

There are many checklist drills that pilots must perform (often by memory alone) and these exist because yes things do go wrong. The impact of the MCAS system should have been on that list but it wasn't. So you could argue is the system itself at fault or just the way the system is operated? From a safety point of view it's both.

The worst part of the MCAS debacle was that if they’d simply told us what it was and that disconnecting the SPEED TRIM would stop it, no-one would have died.

Indeed, one of the crews did disconnect it, but by instinct not an MCAS checklist, so they turned it back on, and then it killed them!

I’d probably have died in the first crash, because it happened so quickly, without knowledge and the aircraft seemed to be TRYING to kill them.

In the second event, insidious though it was, I think it was survivable.

I was flying the MAX at the time of those crashes and was as outraged as everyone else when we heard about MCAS, because “but for the grace of God…!”

 

[ChicagoBlue]

AF447-228 dead thanks to poor training of the pilots.

It was a tad more than that, but in the final analysis, the pilot is the last link in the error chain!

When stuff goes wrong in an Airbus, the checklist driven ECAM system has a cascading effect that can hide the REAL problem, because it’s trying to tell you all the things you need to do to fix everything all at once.

This problem was particularly bad because it was an input to multiple different critical systems, which meant the ECAM chimes, colors, and rapidly changing GUI wasn’t nearly as helpful as it could have in telling the pilot WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PROBLEM?!

From there, any pilot worth his salt would have recognized that they needed to simply use the UPSET RECOVERY MANEUVER and set KNOWN PITCH & POWER SETTINGS to stabilize the jet.

Sadly, three things killed them:

1) One of the pilots had the side stick full aft because he thought they were descending (they were…faster than I hope I ever descend!) and he was trying to stop that descent

2) The other pilot couldn’t see that the side stick was full aft (he could have done do if there was a yoke!)

3) They were descending because they were in a RECOVERABLE stall, but didn’t recognize it because the one FO didn’t think they could still be stalled in a 10,000fpm descent

If EITHER of them had simply pushed the side stick/nose down to get “flyable” airflow over the wings, they could have recovered. However, there was a point well before they hit the water where there was literally nothing they could have done and they realized it. ;-(

 

[RobMCFC]

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

Should I be writing this down, just in case? :)

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Should I be writing this down, just in case? :)

Nah, you’d just leave it in your packed pants in the cargo hold anyway! ;-)

The 787 is highly automated, when we want it to be, and I could (and do!) literally program it to fly from Chicago to São Paulo, Brazil (about 9:30-10:00 hour flight) and land. At 200 feet I could turn on the autopilot and after raising the flaps, go to bed for 9 hrs and get up to watch it land, after slowing down and extending the gear & flaps.

We don’t because ATC is constantly changing our flight plans and we manage the systems, but in an emergency you own the skies and you tell them what you’re doing, not the other way around!

Plus, you’d be surprised how many doctors, nurses and pilots are on aircraft at any given time!

 

[inbetween]

The worst part of the MCAS debacle was that if they’d simply told us what it was and that disconnecting the SPEED TRIM would stop it, no-one would have died.

Indeed, one of the crews did disconnect it, but by instinct not an MCAS checklist, so they turned it back on, and then it killed them!

I’d probably have died in the first crash, because it happened so quickly, without knowledge and the aircraft seemed to be TRYING to kill them.

In the second event, insidious though it was, I think it was survivable.

I was flying the MAX at the time of those crashes and was as outraged as everyone else when we heard about MCAS, because “but for the grace of God…!”

It reminds me very much of the AF447 crash, unlike the MAX crashes that was a slow and consistently bad mismanagement of the situation by the crew.

One contributing factor was the fact that the copilot was sat with his sidestick pointing the nose to the sky, the opposite of good stall recovery. The captain had no idea about this because the sidesticks aren't physically linked and so he couldn't see to challenge the inputs, he did ask eventually but then it was too late.

Anybody from outside would argue that the sidestick design by Airbus contributed to cause the accident. This is actually true in terms of the design but it doesn't account for the fact that the pilots acted outside of the bounds of what is required.

With MCAS and the MAX crashes the pilots similarly did act outside of the bounds of what is required and the aircraft crashed. The difference I guess is they acted unwittingly because the system was so poorly documented and that's where Boeing will have to answer for its sins.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

@inbetween the only thing I would say is that the Captain was in the bunk and came back into the flight deck to see his two FOs unable to figure out what had happened.

He had the rare good fortune to have not seen all the previous commotion and immediately recognized they were in a stall. That’s when the crew found out the FO had the sidestick controller full aft.

One wonders exactly when the Captain knew the guy had killed them all, but it was too late to do a damned thing about it by then.

And, yes, Boeing’s was a sin of omission, not commission!

 

[Nethermoor]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

 

[hampshireblue]

Nah, you’d just leave it in your packed pants in the cargo hold anyway! ;-)

The 787 is highly automated, when we want it to be, and I could (and do!) literally program it to fly from Chicago to São Paulo, Brazil (about 9:30-10:00 hour flight) and land. At 200 feet I could turn on the autopilot and after raiding the flaps, go to bed for 9 hrs and get up to watch it land, after slowing down and extending the gear & flaps.

We don’t because ATC is constantly changing our flight plans and we manage the systems, but in an emergency you own the skies and you tell them what you’re doing, not the other way around!

Plus, you’d be surprised how many doctors, nurses and pilots are on aircraft at any given time!

We don't change the FPL for fun-there's job preservation to think about!! lol

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Don’t give up on it if only money is standing in your way! Nearly every non-military pilot borrows the money to learn to fly, if they want to make a career of it. My own son is doing his multi-Engine rating right now and already has an instructor job lined up in May to build his time.

He started out at zero time and is about $100,000 in for 350 hours and Private, Instrument, Commercial, Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, and now Commercial Multi-Engine. Once he gets 1,500 hrs, he’ll do his ATP and go to the airlines. For reference, the 4 yr degree flight school I went to is now $250,000!

If he gets to my airline before I retire in 4.5 yrs, between his grandfather, his father and himself (if he stays until retirement), we will have exactly ONE CENTURY of flying (1966-2065) with the airline!

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

I doubt it was an outside-inside leak. If it was dripping on him from above, it was probably an air conditioning condensation leak. Conversely, it wouldn’t be the first passenger water battle leaking in the overhead I’d ever seen, either!!

That said, if it was coming from the emergency exit, I hope he reported it to the flight attendants, as they’re required to inform the flight crew. I’m sure it was a loose seal. We usually get those more on the entryway doors, and the problem is not so much water entry but they can squeal like nobody’s business at certain speeds and altitudes!! Flight attendants love that!!!

See something, say something!

 

[Nethermoor]

Don’t give up on it if only money is standing in your way! Nearly every non-military pilot borrows the money to learn to fly, if they want to make a career of it. My own son is doing his multi-Engine rating right now and already has an instructor job lined up in May to build his time.

He started out at zero time and is about $100,000 in for 350 hours and Private, Instrument, Commercial, Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, and now Commercial Multi-Engine. Once he gets 1,500 hrs, he’ll do his ATP and go to the airlines. For reference, the 4 yr degree flight school I went to is now $250,000!

If he gets to my airline before I retire in 4.5 yrs, between his grandfather, his father and himself (if he stays until retirement), we will have exactly ONE CENTURY of flying (1966-2065) with the airline!



I doubt it was an outside-inside leak. If it was dripping on him from above, it was probably an air conditioning condensation leak. Conversely, it wouldn’t be the first passenger water battle leaking in the overhead I’d ever seen, either!!

That said, if it was coming from the emergency exit, I hope he reported it to the flight attendants, as they’re required to inform the flight crew. I’m sure it was a loose seal. We usually get those more on the entryway doors, and the problem is not so much water entry but they can squeal like nobody’s business at certain speeds and altitudes!! Flight attendants love that!!!

See something, say something!

I guess it's not so much the cost, it's the cost of living. I'm 37 with a mortgage and a daughter :D oh and the dog....

It's an ace story though mate 100 years between you all is incredible. Absolutely love it!


He did tell the FA's. I think it was some sort of seal or air con leak. I thought it was funny to be honest. And the fact the plane was reasonably new.

In fact the other year when Jet 2 were receiving their brand new 737-800's from Boeing, one had been in service a week. There was a hydraulic problem inbound to LBA and they couldn't drop the landing gear. Police Helicopter was up to watch them trying to sort it. In the end they did it manually and landed safely. Wouldn't have liked to have being the staff member at Boeing receiving that phone call... about that expensive Airplane you sold us last week....

 

[tailspin747]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

The Cadet schemes are an amazing opportunity and also the route I took (25 years ago). The next Speedbird Academy window for applications will open on 16th April.

Your Speedbird Pilot Academy Application Preparation

Prepare here to apply for the Speedbird Pilot Academy: British Airways' fully funded programme to become a BA pilot.

careers.ba.com

Good luck

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

It's just very blasé to suggest 'almost anyone' could be talked through and paints a rather over-simplistic image of reality. Obviously all the above assumes your average punter would work out how to use the radio (on the right frequency) to be able to talk to you in the first place, then not bugger up the speed and energy management, not make an incorrect selection throwing things into chaos etc etc.

 

[hampshireblue]

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

If both pilots incapacitated, I guess getting on the flight deck may be a challenge!

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Well he is a training captain-what's your qualification?

With today's level of automation which he refers to, it's perfectly possible. It's highly likely that as long as the FMC is correctly programmed the actual controls would require no further input even to the point of the aircraft stopping on the runway.

Seeing as you ask - almost 20 years experience on Bombardier, Embraer, Boeing and Airbus types and currently flying the same aircraft as he does. I'm well aware how an autoland works but the idea 'almost anyone' can just jump into a seat and be talked down is just oversimplistic in my humble view. He has a different view which is fine.