VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

Would you want VAR scrapped?

  • Total voters
    293
  • Poll closed .
BlueHammer85 said:
Who’d want to be a ref, even when you make the correct decision you have opposing fans accusing you of corruption , cheating and calling you a ****. So many blame the authorities yet don’t see themselves how biased, wrong and abusive they are. Got a few guys round me who I swear just go to matches to let off their anger issues at the ref. It’s embarrassing.
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It was like that before VAR from what I remember. It will be like that whatever happens.

VAR should be a tool to lighten the referee's burden, though. They should be invisible, not the key player in the drama. So what about this: just leave decision making to the officials on the pitch. Fouls, offsides, everything. VAR corrects without all the performative art and drama of delays and pitchside reviews. Just review and correct for howlers behind the scenes. If you can't see a howler in a couple of seconds, you don't know what a howler is. Result: referees in control, play continues, no stupid delays and no anger-inducing drama.
 
halfcenturyup said:
It was like that before VAR from what I remember. It will be like that whatever happens.

VAR should be a tool to lighten the referee's burden, though. They should be invisible, not the key player in the drama. So what about this: just leave decision making to the officials on the pitch. Fouls, offsides, everything. VAR corrects without all the performative art and drama of delays and pitchside reviews. Just review and correct for howlers behind the scenes. If you can't see a howler in a couple of seconds, you don't know what a howler is. Result: referees in control, play continues, no stupid delays and no anger-inducing drama.
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spot on.dont re referee it and only use it for obvious howlers.and semi auto offside
 
halfcenturyup said:
It was like that before VAR from what I remember. It will be like that whatever happens.

VAR should be a tool to lighten the referee's burden, though. They should be invisible, not the key player in the drama. So what about this: just leave decision making to the officials on the pitch. Fouls, offsides, everything. VAR corrects without all the performative art and drama of delays and pitchside reviews. Just review and correct for howlers behind the scenes. If you can't see a howler in a couple of seconds, you don't know what a howler is. Result: referees in control, play continues, no stupid delays and no anger-inducing drama.
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Your logic is sound, but as we've learned over the course of this VAR experiment is that it's a very slippery slope. Once you give the video referees in Stockley Park the ability to stop the match and review something, they become addicted to the control they have over the match and feel like it's their job to stop the match and change a decision whenever they see something on the pitch they disagree with, which time and time again disrupts the match and in an inconsistent way. No one away from the pitch should have that kind of control over the outcome of a match. Think about it, they're being paid to find things wrong with the referee, if they do nothing throughout a match they'll begin to feel like they are not doing their job. So practically, once they have the control that they have, there's no real way to limit their involvement to only howlers, even though theoretically that makes a lot of sense and I would agree with you.

At this point, they could announce that VAR will only be limited to howlers for next season, and next season as they go they'll start redefining what a howler is and by the end of the season a howler would become being a millimeter offside. This is why the only logical way forward is to completely remove VAR so that the referee's authority is restored, so that no one outside the pitch can disrupt the match. With the understanding that yes some fouls will be missed, and yes some decisions will be incorrect, and occasionally they'll be a real howler, but even with the occasional howler, the trade off is that there will no longer be annoying stoppages, micro analysis of subjective decisions, etc which affects almost every match. I'd rather have a big howler once a blue moon than annoying delays and micro-controversies in pretty much every match.

If you've been watching football for long enough (pre-VAR) you know that sometimes an incorrect call will go against your club, and when that happens, karma generally (not always but often) has a tendency to cause a call to go your way down the line. Because when a howler goes against a club, it becomes well known, and that plays in the mind of all referees (even if it's a different referee in another match) and often this causes the club that was wronged previously to get the benefit of the doubt in a future situation.

And you know, sometimes, you get a wrong call against you, maybe even a howler, and sometimes despite that, you are able to go on and overcome the wrong call and still win the match, or salvage a draw, and there ends up being lessons learned about overcoming adversity, and not becoming obsessed with any one call. Remember even with a howler, missed or given, the natural flow of the match allows you to quickly get over anything that may have happened. The problem with VAR is that the stopping of the match ends up making something a bigger deal than it actually is. We need to get back to the original mission statement of playing football, that no matter what happens, no matter what the referee does, you are taught from youth football not to argue with the official, but to "play on" and let the chips fall where they may. VAR is the antithesis of that, of how football is supposed to be played.

I get the desire to use technology to help the referees, I get that in other sports it works better, as other sports are better suited to have technology assist referees. Football is simply not as well suited as other sports are to use technology to assist referees. While I would agree that there's a degree of incompetence among the VARs (as in the people in Stockley Park making decision) or the design of the system itself, in my view, it's more that any kind of system is just incompatible with football's very nature. This sport needs to return to its original way of doing things. VAR has been a calamitous failure, and there's really no way around that.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Well the current poll has less than 50% of wanting to scrap VAR - that’s despite the vast majority of posts in here have that been calling it a shambles , a tool to help Man U/Liverpool and calling me a WUM for my defence of having VAR in the game.
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As it stands 49.1% want it scrapped, 35.5% want to keep VAR, and 15.5% are "on the fence". So far more want it scrapped here than want it to stay. And if you're on the fence, that's not exactly an endorsement of keeping VAR.

Which is interesting since, according to this poll from the Athletic, Man City fans (supposedly) are the least supportive of any club to want to scrap VAR :

SWP's back said:
This is very interesting, The Athletic ran a vote on whether VAR should be scrapped and it seems City fans were the least likely to be in favour of it being scrapped.

View attachment 119274

Just goes to show that Bluemoon isn’t an exact barometer of the feels of all City fans.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/54...lubs-to-scrap-var/?source=user_shared_article
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Which would make sense to some extent, given how often City has won the league with VAR. When you're on top, it's natural to have less reason to call for change since you're benefitting from it.

But lets not forget that Man City won the league in the last 2 seasons without VAR. So Man City were the last non-VAR Premier League Champions, and in the first season with VAR, City were unable to win the league, and were quite a large margin that season behind LiVARpool.

If VAR isn't ever scrapped, then Man City will be always be eternal VAR-less Premier League Two-Time Champions. This is a designation that I personally am very proud of. I consider those Titles without VAR far more legitimate than any of City's VAR Titles.

City has never had the opportunity to defend those PL titles in a VAR-less Premier League. But after the first season with VAR, City did adjust and learned how to win the League with VAR as they did pre-VAR. So it's not as if we need to be defending VAR because we're winning the league with VAR. City won the league without VAR just the same and it was far more glorious when VAR wasn't involved because it was contested under normal football standards that existed in the sport during those runs.

The fact is that the poll in this topic flies in the face of the Athletic poll that sees City fans as the least wanting to scrap VAR of any club. Of course this poll is only a small sample size of an online community, but it's relevant. As repeat Champions of the PL, it would mean more to see City vote to scrap VAR. We understand that Wolves are the most aggrieved club in the League with all the VAR decisions that have gone against them, though Wolves insist that it's not because of all the VAR decisions that have gone against them but rather the experience at the stadium, which is common to supporters of all the clubs in the league. But for the multi-time Champion to vote to scrap VAR, that really says something. That would Show that just because City is thriving in this VAR environment, doesn't preclude them from acknowledging the problems that exist under these conditions. It would also be a mistake to conclude that somehow VAR has benefitted City or caused them to win the league. No, City are in this position because of their play on the field, not because of VAR. A vote from City keep VAR would send a message that City have benefitted from an unpopular and arguably corrupt system that is disliked by the vast majority of the fans.

Whatever happens against West Ham, City fans know how damaging VAR is to the integrity of the game, ironically something that was implemented to improve the integrity of the game (accuracy of decisions) has done the very opposite, due to how intrusive and disruptive it has been. Whatever happens against West Ham, I would encourage Pep and the administration to take a stand against the power structure, it would mean more coming from City who have been thriving under VAR, not because of VAR, but because of their play on the pitch.

A vote by City to keep VAR sends a signal (whether true or not) to the other clubs that City will do anything to win, even if it means winning under a system that is detrimental to the future of the sport. Lets not forget that in the past (not so much this season) Pep has been very vocal in his displeasure of VAR. Of course when you are on top, or near the top, there are less harsh decisions that go against you and therefore less opportunities to speak out against it, as other managers have. But despite that, the problems that exist with VAR in football are impossible to ignore.

Champions yet again, or not, a vote for VAR to be scrapped would mean more coming from Man City. Not just from the club bereaved the most by VAR like Wolves, but come to the aid of the smaller clubs who do (for whatever reason) do not seem to be getting the benefit of the doubt with VAR to the extent that the bigger clubs do. Following the final match day, I urge Pep and the administration to take a stand for the fans of our Beautiful Game and vote to scrap this plague on football known as VAR. At the very least, it will gain City a large amount of respect around the league, to not only be on top of the league, but to show a desire to see the competition itself to better reflect the desires of all fans who deserve seeing our sport return to normalcy.
 
TheBeautifulGame said:
As it stands 49.1% want it scrapped, 35.5% want to keep VAR, and 15.5% are "on the fence". So far more want it scrapped here than want it to stay. And if you're on the fence, that's not exactly an endorsement of keeping VAR.

Which is interesting since, according to this poll from the Athletic, Man City fans (supposedly) are the least supportive of any club to want to scrap VAR :



Which would make sense to some extent, given how often City has won the league with VAR. When you're on top, it's natural to have less reason to call for change since you're benefitting from it.

But lets not forget that Man City won the league in the last 2 seasons without VAR. So Man City were the last non-VAR Premier League Champions, and in the first season with VAR, City were unable to win the league, and were quite a large margin that season behind LiVARpool.

If VAR isn't ever scrapped, then Man City will be always be eternal VAR-less Premier League Two-Time Champions. This is a designation that I personally am very proud of. I consider those Titles without VAR far more legitimate than any of City's VAR Titles.

City has never had the opportunity to defend those PL titles in a VAR-less Premier League. But after the first season with VAR, City did adjust and learned how to win the League with VAR as they did pre-VAR. So it's not as if we need to be defending VAR because we're winning the league with VAR. City won the league without VAR just the same and it was far more glorious when VAR wasn't involved because it was contested under normal football standards that existed in the sport during those runs.

The fact is that the poll in this topic flies in the face of the Athletic poll that sees City fans as the least wanting to scrap VAR of any club. Of course this poll is only a small sample size of an online community, but it's relevant. As repeat Champions of the PL, it would mean more to see City vote to scrap VAR. We understand that Wolves are the most aggrieved club in the League with all the VAR decisions that have gone against them, though Wolves insist that it's not because of all the VAR decisions that have gone against them but rather the experience at the stadium, which is common to supporters of all the clubs in the league. But for the multi-time Champion to vote to scrap VAR, that really says something. That would Show that just because City is thriving in this VAR environment, doesn't preclude them from acknowledging the problems that exist under these conditions. It would also be a mistake to conclude that somehow VAR has benefitted City or caused them to win the league. No, City are in this position because of their play on the field, not because of VAR. A vote from City keep VAR would send a message that City have benefitted from an unpopular and arguably corrupt system that is disliked by the vast majority of the fans.

Whatever happens against West Ham, City fans know how damaging VAR is to the integrity of the game, ironically something that was implemented to improve the integrity of the game (accuracy of decisions) has done the very opposite, due to how intrusive and disruptive it has been. Whatever happens against West Ham, I would encourage Pep and the administration to take a stand against the power structure, it would mean more coming from City who have been thriving under VAR, not because of VAR, but because of their play on the pitch.

A vote by City to keep VAR sends a signal (whether true or not) to the other clubs that City will do anything to win, even if it means winning under a system that is detrimental to the future of the sport. Lets not forget that in the past (not so much this season) Pep has been very vocal in his displeasure of VAR. Of course when you are on top, or near the top, there are less harsh decisions that go against you and therefore less opportunities to speak out against it, as other managers have. But despite that, the problems that exist with VAR in football are impossible to ignore.

Champions yet again, or not, a vote for VAR to be scrapped would mean more coming from Man City. Not just from the club bereaved the most by VAR like Wolves, but come to the aid of the smaller clubs who do (for whatever reason) do not seem to be getting the benefit of the doubt with VAR to the extent that the bigger clubs do. Following the final match day, I urge Pep and the administration to take a stand for the fans of our Beautiful Game and vote to scrap this plague on football known as VAR. At the very least, it will gain City a large amount of respect around the league, to not only be on top of the league, but to show a desire to see the competition itself to better reflect the desires of all fans who deserve seeing our sport return to normalcy.
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Hyperbole aside, City are voting to keep VAR.
 
That handball was a perfect example of why we need to keep VAR, it is the way that it gets used currently where the problem lies.
Can you imagine how easy it would have been for the officials to have given that goal today, and what could have happened then.
 
Today in microchasm showed that it isnt the technology but that the idiots using it are allowed to use it incorrectly with no accountability.
 
TinFoilHat said:
Arsenal were allowed to score when the same thing happened in the build up.
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Not the same thing at all. On the West Ham disallowed goal, he had the arm extended, it was inside the box, leading directly to the goal, and it hit lower on the arm near the wrist. He pretty much punched the ball in with his hand there. You can't compare that scenario to what happened in the Arsenal Everton match.

In the Arsenal Everton match, the arm was not extended, he actually tucked the arm into his body to not make himself bigger, it hit off the upper arm between the elbow and the shoulder while the arm was tucked into his body. Not only that but the contact with the tucked upper arm, didn't actually score the goal like with the West Ham punch-in. It was an inadvertent deflection. That goal in my view, was correctly allowed, as it was consistent with the original handball rule, while the West Ham goal was correctly disallowed. Sometimes VAR works, but it's also impossible to know if the West Ham punch-in would have been seen and ruled a handball on the pitch in a VAR-less world. Since VAR has been introduced, there's a lot of confirmation bias that occurs to give the impression that VAR ie needed. It's designed to create situations where the Linos or the referees fail to "see" handballs, but in reality they've just been instructed not to do anything, and wait for VAR.

Without VAR, the Linos and referees know that they can't rely on VAR anymore, and need to start taking action again. Every time there's a clear handball in the box they make the argument that the ref would have missed it like the infamous Henry handball, even when both the referee are in far better position to see the handball than they were with the infamous Henry handball. In essence, VAR is largely a rouse, they're instructed to pretend to not see certain actions like clear handballs in order to justify the need for VAR to help them.
 
abu13 said:
That handball was a perfect example of why we need to keep VAR, it is the way that it gets used currently where the problem lies.
Can you imagine how easy it would have been for the officials to have given that goal today, and what could have happened then.
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If that goal was given and there was no VAR, it would indeed be a howler. But chances are they see that in real-time, with the arm extended, coming off a set piece corner, where the referee is in prime position to see that. Typically the chances of the referee missing a handball off a corner is minimal, compared to handballs following free kicks from farther out, or in the run of play, when the referee is sprinting down late to arrive to the incident, and having his view blocked by other players. When there's a corner, typically the referee positions himself to give himself a good angle to see any potential handballs without having his view blocked.

If VAR was limited to only helping referees see handballs in the box, particularly after goals are scored after deflecting off arms extended, I think we could live with that. The problem with VAR is it isn't only limited in scope of ideal situations for beneficial intervention. You take an example like that, and use it to make an argument for why VAR is needed. But in reality chances are that extended arm punch-in by West Ham gets seen by either the referee or the Lino in real-time if VAR didn't exist.

There's numerous ways in which you could ensure that handballs like that don't get missed, without having to justify the entire VAR monstrosity as it currently exists, which causes a host of other problems, all to ensure that we catch something that 9 times out of 10 is going to be seen in real-time in a VAR less world.

If you wanted to ensure all handballs in the box directly leading to goals are seen, you could position an extra official behind each goal to assist the ref, to give him another set of eyes in real-time, or you could limit video reviewing of handballs to goals scored from potential handballs, rather than possible handballs in the buildup. There's far better solutions to limit the scope of VAR to correcting howlers without all the other negative consequences of the system.
 
SWP's back said:
Hyperbole aside, City are voting to keep VAR.
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A few articles I’ve read suggest it’s highly unlikely to even get as far a vote.

Wolves’ intention was probably just to get it on the agenda and discussed. Rather than a serious attempt to have it scrapped.
 
TinFoilHat said:
Arsenal were allowed to score when the same thing happened in the build up.
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It wasn’t the same thing, as Jesus wasn’t the goalscorer, so he would have needed to deliberately handle the ball for it to be an offence.

While there’s no intent needed for the West Ham goalscorer to commit an offence. Just evidence that it’s touched his hand/ arm.
 
Stephen230 said:
It wasn’t the same thing, as Jesus wasn’t the goalscorer, so he would have needed to deliberately handle the ball for it to be an offence.

While there’s no intent needed for the West Ham goalscorer to commit an offence. Just evidence that it’s touched his hand/ arm.
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I think this video shows the frustration with VAR is largely the inconsistency with application of the rules by the referees and VARs, and the failure of the league and PGMOL to acknowledge—and make changes to mitigate—the consistent errors, variation of outcomes, and/or flaws with the technology.

Gallagher gives his “I can understand why the two decisions were different” defence of two very similar handball incidents involving VAR leading to two very different outcomes.

www.skysports.com

Ref Watch: Should Kai Havertz's winner against Everton have stood?

The Ref Watch team have their say on Kai Havertzs winner against Everton and whether it should have counted following a possible handball from Gabriel Jesus in the build-up.
www.skysports.com www.skysports.com

Some fans would always be unhappy, I freely admit that, but I do believe the anti-VAR fervour would be much more isolate if fans could see them actually trying to substantively improve the system and processes, rather than roll out initiatives merely meant to gaslight fans and legitimise what already is.
 
SebastianBlue said:
I think this video shows the frustration with VAR is largely the inconsistency with application of the rules by the referees and VARs, and the failure of the league and PGMOL to acknowledge—and make changes to mitigate—the consistent errors, variation of outcomes, and/or flaws with the technology.

Gallagher gives his “I can understand why the two decisions were different” defence of two very similar handball incidents involving VAR leading to two very different outcomes.

www.skysports.com

Ref Watch: Should Kai Havertz's winner against Everton have stood?

The Ref Watch team have their say on Kai Havertzs winner against Everton and whether it should have counted following a possible handball from Gabriel Jesus in the build-up.
www.skysports.com www.skysports.com

Some fans would always be unhappy, I freely admit that, but I do believe the anti-VAR fervour would be much more isolate if fans could see them actually trying to substantively improve the system and processes, rather than roll out initiatives merely meant to gaslight fans and legitimise what already is.
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You can see from that video he deliberately knocked the ball past the Everton player with his arm, Oliver is a twat. Thank goodness it did not have any effect on the outcome of the Premier League.
 
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