US Politics Thread

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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Instead of throwing insults about, let's please engage in conversation... and if you still disagree with me after reading the following... debate.

That said...

Free speech is extremely important. Individuals must have the right to free discourse otherwise we creep into totalitarian regimes.

At the same time, completely unrestricted free speech is clearly undesirable. For example, you can't shout, "Fire!," in a crowded theater when no fire is present. And drawing from current political events... gag orders are sometimes placed on individuals to prevent them from intimidating jurors. Free speech cannot be an absolute right regardless of what's said.

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously stated, "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

And yet, here we are in the 21st century, where, currently, you are entitled to your own facts without even necessarily knowing that what you think to be facts are, actually, not factual.
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Perhaps my previous posts conflated two matters with regard to public statements. That of attribution. And that of fact.

With regard to attribution - I think it's going to get worse and worse due to AI. AI will shortly advance to the point where it will be possible to create fake videos showing anyone whatsoever voicing anything whatsoever you desire to be said. And social media - including foreign actors inimical to current governance - will amplify such posts - and indeed will create them.

I don't think, though, that this will be a major problem. Because, within a few years, videos will be digitally signed, proving their source (this is inevitable). And such digital signatures can be made safe even from quantum computing. In future, you'll know for sure, where posts originate, and can disregard posts from sources you don't trust.
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Yet, there remains the matter of factual posts, versus completely made up content.

And this brings me back to the Daniel Patrick Moynihan quotation. "... you are not entitled to your own facts."

What does this mean or imply?

As I've argued above, free speech is currently too free. There's far too little curb for telling outright lies. If it's a crime to yell, "Fire!," in a crowded theater that's not actually on fire... because in the rush to exit, people may well die, perhaps even 10s or possibly 100s of people, then why doesn't some sort of curb exist against, for example, claiming that covid isn't real, it's make believe, or that covid vaccination is unnecessary because you can simply take ivermectin if infected to cure yourself, even if this may result in thousands or millions of unnecessary deaths - orders of magnitude worse than shouting, "Fire!," in a theater.

The "yelling fire" versus "covid vaccinations are unnecessary" argument I've posed doesn't precisely overlap...

In fact, I think that you should be free to express doubt in covid vaccination, provided that your expression of doubt can be flagged as running counter to accepted science/medical opinion.

Granted... it's going to be complicated as hell to update free speech laws to the 21st century... but I think it's doable. But if it's not doable, then we're fucked... because you will be entitled to your own facts.
Click to expand...

But who decides

We’re in a world now where you can state a fact and lose your job or be banned
 
bluemc1 said:
But who decides

We’re in a world now where you can state a fact and lose your job or be banned
Click to expand...

Curious to know what are these facts? Name a fact that will result in you losing your job or being banned - and banned from what exactly?
 
BobKowalski said:
Curious to know what are these facts? Name a fact that will result in you losing your job or being banned - and banned from what exactly?
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Well a fair few people have lost their jobs by referring to a man as a man or woman as woman

Rise in people identifying as trans has increased 4000% in last couple of years, these people aren’t all suddenly trans it’s a social contagion and leading to young people having irreversible operations,

So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm
 
bluemc1 said:
Well a fair few people have lost their jobs by referring to a man as a man or woman as woman

Rise in people identifying as trans has increased 4000% in last couple of years, these people aren’t all suddenly trans it’s a social contagion and leading to young people having irreversible operations,

So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm
Click to expand...

Interesting. Wasn't the same said about homosexuals a generation ago?
 
bluemc1 said:
Well a fair few people have lost their jobs by referring to a man as a man or woman as woman

Rise in people identifying as trans has increased 4000% in last couple of years, these people aren’t all suddenly trans it’s a social contagion and leading to young people having irreversible operations,

So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm
Click to expand...
So you are stating these facts to try and inspire folk to get the necessary help? You are a hero. My cap is doffed.
 
Koniec said:
So you are stating these facts to try and inspire folk to get the necessary help? You are a hero. My cap is doffed.
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To be completely honest I’m not trying to do anything at the moment I’ve got my own shit to deal with

I was asked for of an example of people getting sacked and gave one

I mentioned the harms that it will cause as the post I was replying to was saying how you shouldn’t be able to say things that cause harm so I stated in this case I feel that not stating facts will be causing harm

Typical lefty loon though straight on the attack when they hear something they don’t like, like facts
 
bluemc1 said:
To be completely honest I’m not trying to do anything at the moment I’ve got my own shit to deal with

I was asked for of an example of people getting sacked and gave one

I mentioned the harms that it will cause as the post I was replying to was saying how you shouldn’t be able to say things that cause harm so I stated in this case I feel that not stating facts will be causing harm

Typical lefty loon though straight on the attack when they hear something they don’t like, like facts
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I’m neither left or right as a general rule, I dont make my mind up till I know about the issue but Thanks for assuming.

You ever think that the sudden rise in folk coming out as trans is that now it’s actually safe for them to do so and there is the necessary help and support networks for them now. There’s been plenty hidden away for centuries it’s just now they won’t get burned at the stake for them being themselves.

“So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm”

Your words btw
 
Koniec said:
I’m neither left or right as a general rule, I dont make my mind up till I know about the issue but Thanks for assuming.

You ever think that the sudden rise in folk coming out as trans is that now it’s actually safe for them to do so and there is the necessary help and support networks for them now. There’s been plenty hidden away for centuries it’s just now they won’t get burned at the stake for them being themselves.

“So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm”

Your words btw
Click to expand...

No I don’t think that they do it now because they’ve always been there but it’s safe now, I think it’s pushed and 90% of people I see identifying this way are clearly mentally ill


I won’t be discussing anymore on this subject
 
bluemc1 said:
To be completely honest I’m not trying to do anything at the moment I’ve got my own shit to deal with

I was asked for of an example of people getting sacked and gave one

I mentioned the harms that it will cause as the post I was replying to was saying how you shouldn’t be able to say things that cause harm so I stated in this case I feel that not stating facts will be causing harm

Typical lefty loon though straight on the attack when they hear something they don’t like, like facts
Click to expand...

Why not have a conversation with a trans person? You might learn something.

It's not facts it's your opinions and beliefs. Trans people or gender non-conforming people have existed in cultures all around the world since antiquity. Even in cultures geographically isolated from the rest of the world such as Native Americans or Pacific Islands.

You'd have to be a bit daft to believe the mythical "gender ideology" is the cause.
 
bluemc1 said:
No I don’t think that they do it now because they’ve always been there but it’s safe now, I think it’s pushed and 90% of people I see identifying this way are clearly mentally ill
Click to expand...

Hello, Doctor.

Are you a psychiatrist or a psychologist?
 
bluemc1 said:
No I don’t think that they do it now because they’ve always been there but it’s safe now, I think it’s pushed and 90% of people I see identifying this way are clearly mentally ill


I won’t be discussing anymore on this subject
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Won’t be discussing it because you are spouting bollocks? 90%, got anything to back that up? You arent stating facts just your personal opinion, “I think” shows that. But facts don’t matter, right.
 
Koniec said:
Won’t be discussing it because you are spouting bollocks? 90%, got anything to back that up? You arent stating facts just your personal opinion, “I think” shows that. But facts don’t matter, right.
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It's almost like it's not factually based at all. It's a belief system that collects automatons with a Heaven's Gate level of commitment.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It's almost like it's not factually based at all. It's a belief system that collects automatons with a Heaven's Gate level of commitment.
Click to expand...
Jon Stewart nailing the whole cancel culture thing



Those on the right are quick to call anyone who disagrees with any of their views a lefty loony for merely pointing out any flaw in their logic of beliefs. Then walk away when they know deep down they are talking nonsense. Snowflakes the lot of them. Why be right or left, just try not be a **** to anyone else, no matter what they are. Though I think that’s what “woke” actually is.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It's almost like it's not factually based at all. It's a belief system that collects automatons with a Heaven's Gate level of commitment.
Click to expand...

In one sense, I welcome the GOP's plunge into insanity (from my perspective) because they really are going to have a hard time walking it back. I disagree with even a sane GOP on important issues (to me) like LGBT as I'm very pro LGBT equal rights, and really just about everything else. I want the damn party to dwindle.

Can't speak enough about abortion, now that they are the dog that caught the car, might lose them this election. The problem--they actually killed Roe v Wade, and still might actually win despite their insanity, which tells you a lot about this country.

Hell, they are apparently making inroads with minorities, which is like chickens voting for Col. Sanders, but whatever.. it's like the brits voting for Brexit I guess!
 
Koniec said:
Jon Stewart nailing the whole cancel culture thing



Those on the right are quick to call anyone who disagrees with any of their views a lefty loony for merely pointing out any flaw in their logic of beliefs. Then walk away when they know deep down they are talking nonsense. Snowflakes the lot of them. Why be right or left, just try not be a **** to anyone else, no matter what they are. Though I think that’s what “woke” actually is.
Click to expand...


I walked away because I’m bored of conversing with morons
Your first reply was just a sarcastic I doff my hat and you’re a hero when I stated a fact

You completely moved away from the facts I mentioned and turned it into a let’s try and label someone who’s facts have annoyed me and try to belittle and slander and hope my fella morons come quick to help me achieve this ( they didn’t disappoint )

It’s boring and predictable and I can’t be arsed

It started with me saying you can lose your job by stating facts
I was asked for an example
I gave one

You jumped in offering nothing on the conversation in hand and made took a pop at me for stating facts
So I see you’ve got your knickers in a twist about my 90% of trans I see look mentally ill so I’ll tell you what I’ll do with you
For every video of a trans person that looks mentally well balanced you can send I’ll send 9 of them where you’d say they look to have huge mental problems

You up for that
I’m guessing probably not
 
bluemc1 said:
I walked away because I’m bored of conversing with morons
Your first reply was just a sarcastic I doff my hat and you’re a hero when I stated a fact

You completely moved away from the facts I mentioned and turned it into a let’s try and label someone who’s facts have annoyed me and try to belittle and slander and hope my fella morons come quick to help me achieve this ( they didn’t disappoint )

It’s boring and predictable and I can’t be arsed

It started with me saying you can lose your job by stating facts
I was asked for an example
I gave one

You jumped in offering nothing on the conversation in hand and made took a pop at me for stating facts
So I see you’ve got your knickers in a twist about my 90% of trans I see look mentally ill so I’ll tell you what I’ll do with you
For every video of a trans person that looks mentally well balanced you can send I’ll send 9 of them where you’d say they look to have huge mental problems

You up for that
I’m guessing probably not
Click to expand...
Ok. Show me the 10% of normal trans. I’m obviously using your numbers. I’m definitely up for that.
 
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