The Labour Government

[Bluesince1979]

There was a thoughtful model that a few universities were using that was in the public domain for a fair while, last time I looked for it the link was broke but I'll try and find it. But if I just take my own life...

Born white western european male at a time when that was still like winning the lottery (still not a bad gig even today).

Born to working class parents who were determined that I had a better education and prospects than they did and were prepared to make sacrifices for that to happen. Something that didn't happen for a number of my equally capable friends.

Raised in a council house where there was surety of tenancy and so no real disruptions to family life. Despite also raising a severely disabled son, my parents managed to always keep the wheels on the road and a stable family environment.

Born at a time when social mobility was seen as important so able to get a free higher education and a means tested living allowance.

Through higher education, developed a more rounded understanding of what the world offered and without even being aware of the words, built up social and cultural capital that I was then able to use to gain some economic capital.

First good job I got, there were way better candidates than me but I just hit it off with the interviewers and they offered the job to me when it should probably have gone to others.

2 years into that job, the team I was leading made a fairly catastrophic error. Had my boss been the person I was working for 3 months earlier, I 100% know I'd have been thrown under the bus and fired. But my new boss told me to go home and do nothing while he peeled the MD off the roof.

A company I was working for was bought by a US company and in an early management meeting the simple fact I had a British accent meant that at the point everyone was arguing about something, my voice cut through and within a couple of years I had an exec position.

I could go on but I think the reality is that life is full of both big and small sliding door moments. I also think people often have access to a variety of social and cultural advantages that they don't even realise are advantages.

I'm doing ok but none of that's really down to me if I'm honest. I've messed up as many times as I've done a good job. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth but I was born into a loving environment with strong values at a time when a commitment to social mobility was peaking. I was able to take advantage of that and I've been in the right place at the right time at a number of points in my life and when things have gone wrong I've had always been blessed to have someone or something to fall back on.

I get the sliding doors comment. Thats a HUGE part of life but i also think sliding doors IS life , its just how it os and isnt down to luck as such
Me and my wife both had dates on the night of our first date but cancelled them then met . 15 years and 2 kids later ..

But im not sure most successes in life can be just put down to luck.
I was thinking of the lads i know who wre successful and have a few quid and for most of them its through pure graft. One example is a lad with a big removal company and he started out just him and a tranny van. The others are the same , they grafter their bollocks off.

Im self emp and do ok but through CHOICE i keep my business at the level it is as i dont want the stress that comes with expanding.
So if i did expand (which i could), became successful, is that down to luck or choice?

Ps you put your side of the debate down very well, me not so much, so be gentle

 

[KS55]

I'm not sure that that article was referencing the global corporation tax agreement. However the rate I saw discussed which was 15% is way too low imo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_minimum_corporate_tax_rate#:~:text=The global minimum corporate tax,the OECD/G20 Inclusive Framework.

At the time I read that Sunack voted for this 15% global rate when Chancellor, I did read that the US wanted it placed at a higher rate of 20%. But he and others objected. Shortly afterwards Sunack raised UK corporation tax rates for SMEs to 25 to 40%. It was of course pure coincidence that Sunacks wife Akshata Murty is a billionaire share holder in a multinational company.

The 15% proposal is for a minimum level. It is designed to stop international competition by non taxation. Countries will be free to charge greater amounts if they wish.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

The 15% proposal is for a minimum level. It is designed to stop international competition by non taxation. Countries will be free to charge greater amounts if they wish.

Yes I understand that, at the time Sunack was happy with 15%. Let's hope Labour bring that level up to 25% , the rate for UK SMEs. Do you think they will, I have serious doubts myself.

 

[KS55]

Yes I understand that, at the time Sunack was happy with 15%. Let's hope Labour bring that level up to 25% , the rate for UK SMEs. Do you think they will, I have serious doubts myself.

No. It will be left at 15%. I suppose that is likely to become the norm, which certainly is far too low.
I would be inclined to abolish taxes on production, such as N.I., give 100% relief to certain capital investment such as A.I., and increase taxes on profits, while stopping up work rounds such as transfer pricing and selling I.P. intra group.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

No. It will be left at 15%. I suppose that is likely to become the norm, which certainly is far too low.
I would be inclined to abolish taxes on production, such as N.I., and increase taxes on profits, while stopping up work rounds such as transfer pricing and selling I.P. intra group.

Tbh I don't understand the last two yoh mentioned, transfer pricing and IO intra group ??

 

[Vic]

And hopefully a review of the Council Tax system so that it doesn't stop at band H....And those that live in massive houses start to contribute .

Poll tax saved the landed gentry millions by abolishing the rates (at heart a tax on the value of land). Council tax is ostensibly a charge for services but it's still a rich man's scheme for redistribution of wealth to the rich.

 

[KS55]

Tbh I don't understand the last two yoh mentioned, transfer pricing and IO intra group ??

I invent a gizmo that improves my production efficiency. I sell the intellectual property rights to a company in the same group which I have established in a low tax country. I then pay a royalty to use my own gizmo. Of course, that royalty is, say, 75% of the cost. Magic, I make minimum profit here and pay no corporation tax while my group pal pays just 10% profits tax in his little haven.
IKEA do this, the designs of their furniture are owned by a group co in Monaco. Ireland and Holland made a fortune by hosting the I.P. companies. Starbucks buy their coffee at hugely inflated prices from their group co. in Holland.
City tried this, setting up a co in CFG to own our kit designs and sell them to us and all the other teams in CFG. In our case it was designed to increase our income thru the sale of the IP to CFG. I think the PL outlawed this via ffp.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I invent a gizmo that improves my production efficiency. I sell the intellectual property rights to a company in the same group which I have established in a low tax country. I then pay a royalty to use my own gizmo. Of course, that royalty is, say, 75% of the cost. Magic, I make minimum profit here and pay no corporation tax while my group pal pays just 10% profits tax in his little haven.
IKEA do this, the designs of their furniture are owned by a group co in Monaco. Ireland and Holland made a fortune by hosting the I.P. companies. Starbucks buy their coffee at hugely inflated prices from their group co. in Holland.
City tried this, setting up a co in CFG to own our kit designs and sell them to us and all the other teams in CFG. In our case it was designed to increase our income thru the sale of the IP to CFG. I think the PL outlawed this via ffp.

Ah got you, thanks. I was a little aware of this but didnt know much about it. As you say it's all linked and part of the legal tax avoidance schemes that international big busines use to avoid paying the going rate.

Out of interest , why do you think Starmer and Reeves will leave the tax rate for international business at 15% and not increase it ?

 

[KS55]

Ah got you, thanks. I was a little aware of this but didnt know much about it. As you say it's all linked and part of the legal tax avoidance schemes that international big busines use to avoid paying the going rate.

Out of interest , why do you think Starmer and Reeves will leave the tax rate for international business at 15% and not increase it ?

Competing with other international businesses where 15% is paid. Our balance of payments is chronically negative, so we need more exports. Upping the tax rate and, therefore, the prices is not a good idea.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I invent a gizmo that improves my production efficiency. I sell the intellectual property rights to a company in the same group which I have established in a low tax country. I then pay a royalty to use my own gizmo. Of course, that royalty is, say, 75% of the cost. Magic, I make minimum profit here and pay no corporation tax while my group pal pays just 10% profits tax in his little haven.
IKEA do this, the designs of their furniture are owned by a group co in Monaco. Ireland and Holland made a fortune by hosting the I.P. companies. Starbucks buy their coffee at hugely inflated prices from their group co. in Holland.
City tried this, setting up a co in CFG to own our kit designs and sell them to us and all the other teams in CFG. In our case it was designed to increase our income thru the sale of the IP to CFG. I think the PL outlawed this via ffp.

The NIKE model...... a company owns the brand / logo and is based in Bermuda (a tax haven) . The shoes are manufactured by a company based in the Netherlands. The trainers are (obviously) sold world wide. Each year the manufacturing company pays the company that owns the brand royalties (every penny of profit) which is then distributed to its shareholders. Next to no tax is paid in the Netherlands and similar in Bermuda.

Nike Could Owe Billions In Tax If New EU Probe Finds Against It - ICIJ

The European investigation into suspected illegal state aid follows ICIJ’s Paradise Papers reporting, which uncovered details of Nike’s global tax strategy.

www.icij.org

 

[Vic]

Caught lol. Didn't know who Adam Smith was and don't care. But if that makes you and Kobayashi feel better, you guys go for it.

We were having a debate about IHT, I stand by the points I made, it's a deeply unpopular tax in the UK, always has been and I suspect always will be.

It is quite amusing seeing you guys trying to defend every possible policy Labour may bring in or not. A couple of months ago you would of no doubt have been slaughtering the Tories for exactly the same policies. But now the boot is on the other foot .....

Bluntly, your not knowing who Adam Smith was is not a great qualification for commenting about others' views on economics or taxation.

Taxes on estates were not invented by Labour. When death duties meant Lord Grantham might not be able to keep Downton in the family, death duties were not "deeply unpopular". If they are now, that's as much to do with media owned by millionaires as it is to a realistic assessment of who pays what.

I'll not identify the writers, but here are two quotes to consider.

"Nothing is more offensive to the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers, most of whom are subject to PAYE, than the knowledge that people far better off than themselves are avoiding taxation by exploiting loopholes in the existing law. If the existing estate duty operated effectively, the great concentrations of private wealth would already have been broken up and with them many of the unfair advantages enjoyed by generation after generation of the heirs and relatives of wealthy men. In practice, however, the estate duty has always been a largely avoidable, indeed, a voluntary, tax."

"Already, for the 1960s generation, it looks as if about a quarter of the difference in lifetime living standards between those with rich and poor parents is being driven by inheritance. For those born in the 1980s that’s likely to rise to a third.
The real winners here are the poor children of rich parents. For them inheritance will be especially important. It effectively insures them against bad luck, lack of talent, or sloth. No such safety net for the more numerous poorer children of poorer parents. For the rich children of rich parents, meanwhile, inheritance is just another bonus along the way, a bonus that will serve to exacerbate already growing inequalities."

 

[metalblue]

Well both you and I would like to think so but the leaks from inside government (small g) are currently like the "Nightmare before Christmas".
I guess it's to make us feel happier about what taxes we eventually get. Sort of "Phew look what we could have got!
The trouble is if you scare the business and investment horses too much, the economy could well suddenly stop growing and UK PLC suddenly nose dives towards recession.

It’s like council tax, they trail that “it’s going up 15% next year” so you’re happy when it “only” goes up 9%

 

[metalblue]

But if you die and leave a home worth over £500k then, by dint of the fact they’ve just been given a free house worth over £500k, they are immediately wealthy. They’ve just been given an asset that cost them zilch and it is worth over £500k. They haven’t paid a single penny in tax to gain possession of the asset. It’s been given to them free of charge.
And it absolutely should be taxable. Personally I’d throw in a further band of £1m, above which every penny is taxable at a rate of 100%.
Nobody, but nobody, should “need” a free gift worth more than £1m. Not when we have people sleeping on our streets, and people waiting years for crucial health treatment.

Tax these selfish bastards until the pips squeak.

Taxation has to be fair if you expect people to pay it. Not driven by jealousy and anger, else folk will put it in trust funds.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Bluntly, your not knowing who Adam Smith was is not a great qualification for commenting about others' views on economics or taxation.

Taxes on estates were not invented by Labour. When death duties meant Lord Grantham might not be able to keep Downton in the family, death duties were not "deeply unpopular". If they are now, that's as much to do with media owned by millionaires as it is to a realistic assessment of who pays what.

I'll not identify the writers, but here are two quotes to consider.

"Nothing is more offensive to the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers, most of whom are subject to PAYE, than the knowledge that people far better off than themselves are avoiding taxation by exploiting loopholes in the existing law. If the existing estate duty operated effectively, the great concentrations of private wealth would already have been broken up and with them many of the unfair advantages enjoyed by generation after generation of the heirs and relatives of wealthy men. In practice, however, the estate duty has always been a largely avoidable, indeed, a voluntary, tax."

"Already, for the 1960s generation, it looks as if about a quarter of the difference in lifetime living standards between those with rich and poor parents is being driven by inheritance. For those born in the 1980s that’s likely to rise to a third.
The real winners here are the poor children of rich parents. For them inheritance will be especially important. It effectively insures them against bad luck, lack of talent, or sloth. No such safety net for the more numerous poorer children of poorer parents. For the rich children of rich parents, meanwhile, inheritance is just another bonus along the way, a bonus that will serve to exacerbate already growing inequalities."

Mate, I have my views on the tax system , a system that I have paid into throughout my life both as an individual and as a business owner. I base my views on these experiences, sometimes I agree with Governments, sometimes I don't.
You may have guessed from some of my posts that I happened to dissagree with many of the last governments tax policies. I am looking forward to what our new government will offer, and am optimistic that Reeves will be a good Chancellor, but I will judge her on her record, not on the party she represents. Am I greatly read on economics? certainly not, but that shouldn't stop me forming my own opinion, despite you thinking otherwise.

I believe and want a fair tax system That's it essentially it. I'm not against IHT per see but consider it should not be too onerous. What I consider onerous is likely to differ from what others think. I've worked hard all my life, but wasnt fortunate enough to inherit anything for reasons beyond my control. I would personally like to give my children a better chance in life by passing on as many of my assets as I can. Have a good day.

 

[Vic]

It’s like council tax, they trail that “it’s going up 15% next year” so you’re happy when it “only” goes up 9%

Now if everyone who didn't need the winter fuel allowance spent it on a 9% increase in council tax the council could keep more libraries open for a warm space for those who do need it.

 

[Kompany Car]

Every time we have one of these types of discussions we hear the term "hardworking people". I don't know if they've published it recently but the last two times the ISSP published data in this space, what is striking is that in the vast majority of countries the hours worked by the top and lowest decile income workers are either about the same or the lowest income decile workers work longer hours than than the highest income decile workers. I think in Belgium and maybe Germany the highest income workers work a few hours more than the lowest earners but apart from those two, broadly speaking people at the bottom of the income scale either work harder or as hard for a fraction of the income.

This is not to have a pop at the concept of being hard working but simply to point out that in an of itself it has little to do with the amount of income/wealth one generates.

To quote a line from a movie when somebody said that they worked hard, the response was "So do washing machines".

 

[Chippy_boy]

Notice you didn't come back to me about your hilarious 10m people claim, the car less bit, the sxi bit and Blackpool bit is called an exaggeration counter argument to show how silly your argument was you silly sod, you didn't get it you dumb ass.

Why are you so offensive all the time?

I did come back to you about the car less bit. I told you that I did not say rich people have all forgone car ownership. Not that any such explanation was needed because it was fucking obvious "the car they didn't buy" does not mean "they never bought any car, ever".

And as to the sxi and Blackpool bit? No idea what you are talking about, did you write it? If so, somewhat - like hugely - ironic that you can use exaggeration to illustrate a point, but apparently I cannot under your rules.

 

[hilts]

Spoilt? Jesus Christ you are clueless. Genuinely, I mean that. You have no idea of my personal circumstances.

I said when it comes to money, I never said anything about your personal circumstances or if you are loaded or not i dont care but you have history on this subject,.
You're not very good at this debating lark how you afforded Chippy towers and the surrounding moat is beyond me(blast from the past) :-)

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Every time we have one of these types of discussions we hear the term "hardworking people". I don't know if they've published it recently but the last two times the ISSP published data in this space, what is striking is that in the vast majority of countries the hours worked by the top and lowest decile income workers are either about the same or the lowest income decile workers work longer hours than than the highest income decile workers. I think in Belgium and maybe Germany the highest income workers work a few hours more than the lowest earners but apart from those two, broadly speaking people at the bottom of the income scale either work harder or as hard for a fraction of the income.

This is not to have a pop at the concept of being hard working but simply to point out that in an of itself it has little to do with the amount of income/wealth one generates.

Indeed. The hardest worker I know is my cleaner! She is on her feet from 9 til 7 working 2 jobs but is paid just above minimum wage by her employer (not me :-). Hard work doesn’t always mean more success from a financial perspective.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I said when it comes to money, I never said anything about your personal circumstances or if you are loaded or not i dont care but you have history on this subject,.
You're not very good at this debating lark how you afforded Chippy towers and the surrounding moat is beyond me(blast from the past) :-)

Thank-you for the smiley at least.

Good point about Chippy Towers and the moat. Symptomatic of people just not being able to get their head around me sticking up for the better off/wealthy despite me not actually being wealthy.