How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Alan Harper's Tash]

But remember, your assumption was not merely flawed-just wrong-in his objective and balanced opinion!!

Not worth wasting time on. Better things to do.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Kobay I used that as an example why some people may have voted for Brexit and now feel that the political separation from the EU has been a success as its what they wanted. I know two people who's main reason for voting leave was for this reason.

That's fine but political separation came at the price of economic decline and more immigration. If that's the price they accept then they can laud it as a success but they can't moan about either of those issues later down the line.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Success as in better life for British people.

Sure, if you're an anti EU ideologue who doesn't care about quality of life for us, then it's been a great success.

But the original point was about how our political class had failed somehow. My point is that no political class could have made a success of it, other than in the narrow ideological sense you suggest.

Any different implementation would just have a different set of failures.

I see this thread as a gathering of people who want Brexit to be a failure. Nearly everyone who posts on here voted to remain and clearly want brexit it to fail if only to be able to say I told you so. It simply doesn't reflect the populations will at large either at the time of the vote or now.

It could have been implemented more successfully than it has been from an economic point of view. Its fair to say our civil servants and politicians were not equipped to negotiate as its not in their skill set, they had no experience.

But to say it's been a complete failure economically is not true either imo. If thats the case how do you explain the fact some EU countries, including those that were put on a pedestal by many on here as reasons why we should remain. Are now doing worse than the UK economically. Who's to say we would not have been in their situation if we had stayed?

Theres a middle ground some where, but I suspect it's pretty hard to define because of incompetent government policies.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

That's fine but political separation came at the price of economic decline and more immigration. If that's the price they accept then they can laud it as a success but they can't moan about either of those issues later down the line.

A price many people didn't vote for tho.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

A price many people didn't vote for tho.

Nigel Farage told us we'd have more immigration from the commonwealth to replace the migration from the EU years before Brexit.

Brexit was a simple idea for simple people.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I see this thread as a gathering of people who want Brexit to be a failure. Nearly everyone who posts on here voted to remain and clearly want brexit it to fail if only to be able to say I told you so. It simply doesn't reflect the populations will at large either at the time of the vote or now.

It could have been implemented more successfully than it has been from an economic point of view. Its fair to say our civil servants and politicians were not equipped to negotiate as its not in their skill set, they had no experience.

But to say it's been a complete failure economically is not true either imo. If thats the case how do you explain the fact some EU countries, including those that were put on a pedestal by many on here as reasons why we should remain. Are now doing worse than the UK economically. Who's to say we would not have been in their situation if we had stayed?

Theres a middle ground some where, but I suspect it's pretty hard to define because of incompetent government policies.

Economically, the effects of Brexit are very clear and undisputedly negative.

That other countries have also done badly tells you literally nothing about Brexit.

 

[blueparrot]

A price many people didn't vote for tho.

Well it was explained to them what would happen ,so they did vote for it.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Economically, the effects of Brexit are very clear and undisputedly negative.

That other countries have also done badly tells you literally nothing about Brexit.

Really? So if we had stayed we would have been doing much better than Germany and France.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Nigel Farage told us we'd have more immigration from the commonwealth to replace the migration from the EU years before Brexit.

Brexit was a simple idea for simple people.

I don't agree with that elitist ideology of yours but there again I think we need economic growth to improve our nations wealth and you stated we didn't need any growth. So we are always going to be poles apart.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I don't agree with that elitist ideology of yours but there again I think we need economic growth to improve our nations wealth and you stated we didn't need any growth. So we are always going to be poles apart.

I wasn't talking about wealth but thanks for straw-manning something to 11.

You're smug, unreasonably so. It's betrayed your position.

Stop pretending not to be a brexiteer.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I wasn't talking about wealth but thanks for straw-manning something to 11.

You're smug, unreasonably so. It's betrayed your position.

Stop pretending not to be a brbrexiteer.

lol, that wasnt your finest moment was it Kobay. Sorry to bring it up ;-)

Where did I ever pretend I voted one way or another?

 

[BrianW]

Also I have put this out there before but no one was able to answer me. Honest question why is the ROI able to put illegal immigrants straight back on a ferry to the UK without any formal checks or processing but the

Perhaps because the UK and Ireland have a Common Travel Area? You don't need a passport to enter the Republic, any more than Yorkshire. (In reality, you may be asked for an ID like a driving licence, but I doubt that is needed on the island of Ireland, once you've got there.) Now, I don't know the full SP of the CTA, but it looks like undesirables can legally be sent back. Presumably, this works both ways.

We don't have a common travel area with the rest of the EU and Brexit meant we gave up the Dublin Agreement. So, we have no agreed system to return these people to France.

As for the Australian immigration system, it's what we have, more or less. To get a visa to immigrate, you have to hit a points target. Same as Australia. On the basis of the latest data I have seen, 97% of total immigrants have a visa given to them by the UK government. Mostly, I presume, for economic reasons.

All Brexit did was reduce EU immigration and replace it with Commonwealth and Third World immigration. And increase the total numbers. People coming from further away, without free movement, are all the more likely to stay here permanently. Many EU immigrants stayed for a bit, then went home to Poland or wherever.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Really? So if we had stayed we would have been doing much better than Germany and France.

You're disputing that Brexit has had a negative effect on our economy.

Good luck convincing a single economist of that.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

You're disputing that Brexit has had a negative effect on our economy.

Good luck convincing a single economist of that.

Patrick Minford is still alive isn't he?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Patrick Minford is still alive isn't he?

I vaguely recall even he had recanted, but am too lazy to find out for sure.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

You're disputing that Brexit has had a negative effect on our economy.

Good luck convincing a single economist of that.

I dont think thats what I said, I asked you a question, which you ignored.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Perhaps because the UK and Ireland have a Common Travel Area? You don't need a passport to enter the Republic, any more than Yorkshire. (In reality, you may be asked for an ID like a driving licence, but I doubt that is needed on the island of Ireland, once you've got there.) Now, I don't know the full SP of the CTA, but it looks like undesirables can legally be sent back. Presumably, this works both ways.

We don't have a common travel area with the rest of the EU and Brexit meant we gave up the Dublin Agreement. So, we have no agreed system to return these people to France.

As for the Australian immigration system, it's what we have, more or less. To get a visa to immigrate, you have to hit a points target. Same as Australia. On the basis of the latest data I have seen, 97% of total immigrants have a visa given to them by the UK government. Mostly, I presume, for economic reasons.

All Brexit did was reduce EU immigration and replace it with Commonwealth and Third World immigration. And increase the total numbers. People coming from further away, without free movement, are all the more likely to stay here permanently. Many EU immigrants stayed for a bit, then went home to Poland or wherever.

Good response Brian. Thanks.

I'm wasn't a fan of the last Government, but to be honest I don't recall us returning many people back to France before we left the EU, do you?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

As always a good little debate chaps. Until the next time.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I dont think thats what I said, I asked you a question, which you ignored.

Yes, I chose to skip your tedious rhetorical device and stick to the facts.

Brexit harmed Britain.

No different political class could have done it without harming Britain.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Based on your statements, I happen to disagree. There is no balance or objectivity in your statements.

In my statements where I am refuting your assertion that my assessment of recklessness is simply founded on the fact I disagree with those individuals?

I feel I’ve explained myself more than adequately and in a reasoned way, which is as objective and balanced as it needed to be.