PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Thr premier league case against Leicester gave me a bit of confidence.

Serious charges, serious consequences but seemed to rely more on "it's not right what they did" than "they actually broke the rule according to the letter of the rule".

And like with ours, I wonder how much pressure the league was put under by other clubs to lay the charges regardless.
 
Anything new over the last few days or just loads more pages of the same stuff round and round?
 
All fair points but, without wanting to belabour the point, this non-lawyer can hardly be criticised for using the term when CAS itself said "the panel finds that, based on the leaked emails, MCFC clearly had a case to answer, as the emails exchanged at executive and board level of MCFC describe an arrangement ... " and this debate was only started when one of your fellow lawyers agreed with the **** Jordan's thinking that the club has a case to answer.

On the other hand, I am happy to accept I may be using the wrong terminology, so maybe I should just have said the PL had a proper basis for investigation and for referring allegations to the disciplinary process if they thought the answers from the club weren't satisfactory.

But my main point was that, just because I can accept those two things doesn't mean I think the PL has a snowflake's chance in hell of landing the most serious allegations.

And to refer to @petrusha 's point about lawyers. I get that lawyers are naturally cautious by nature and professional responsibility but I, as an accountant (amongst other things) and a retired one at that, have no such qualms about saying that.
no, i believe the terminology is correct.
"the **** Jordan's thinking"
 
I think that the real dichotomy is that the legally-trained posters on here, whose input has been brilliant and Invaluable, start from a position that the rule of law, and the process around applying that, is fundamentally sound and that the sole concern is upholding that law and trusting the process. Whereas the non-legally trained, hardened old cynics like me see it differently.
Actually, they don’t. What they all recognise I think is that within any large regulatory body there will be a number of actors who all have their different motivations. With the CPS for instance there may be some who are very keen to devote resources to particular types of crime, some may be ambitious hot shots willing to go after a perceived untouchable, some may have personal motivations for wanting to prosecute particular types
of crimes, there may be directives from on high they are under pressure to comply with.

It is very likely the same with the PL. it is unlikely that the PL was under no pressure at all from certain quarters to bring proceedings against City. It is possible some within the decision making pyramid were so keen to bring proceedings they rather overlooked the evidential hurdles they would face. There may have been some who think charging City was necessary even if the prospects of success were low so as to avoid allegations of complicity and cover up. There may be some who thought the evidence against City was overwhelming.

You factor in the number of charges and the period in question and the charging decision seems stranger, and more potentially the product of wider influences being brought to bear. However until we know what evidence the PL are relying on, we’re guessing. What we know however that charging decisions like this are made with the input of a variety of individuals all of whom have their own interests and reasons in mind in recommending that charges are brought. It is possible that some of those concerns are illegitimate, it is highly unlikely that they all were.

What the lawyers in the thread have faith in, I think, is the quality of the eventual process. The APT arbitration shows that when you put flimsy reasoning before a high quality tribunal you get torn to pieces. I think we all hope that is what will happen here, and the difficulties the PL face have been commented on at some length. But until we know what the evidence is, as I say, we’re guessing.
 
You are suggesting the PL received evidence from the club that was sufficient to counter the allegations, but the PL went ahead with a hugely expensive disciplinary process anyway? You may be right, of course, but it's a step too far for me, tbh.

Anyway, I think it's very unlikely for the reasons I have set out previously.
Could be city provided lots of really good proof but without anything from the likes of Mancini Etihad etc and other third parties driven on by outsiders (United etc ) or just a desire for some sort of perfect proof they carried on regardless
 
As I've posted before, for the first time in March 2023, I've always felt there's a fundamental dichotomy here. IMO, City's confidence about having irrefutable evidence and the entirely reasonable assumption that the PL wouldn't have accused the club in this way without being confident of having a strong case are mutually exclusive.

One or two people have posted with hypotheses as to how both propositions could co-exist, but there's nothing I find at all convincing (others, might, I suppose). Anyway, my view on what we can reasonably infer at this stage is as follows.
  1. Once the emails were published, the PL had an obligation to investigate, as the published emails are sufficient to raise the issue of potential wrongdoing, albeit that they aren't close to being conclusive evidence of it.
  2. Given the PL's wider investigatory powers, it was entitled not to satisfy itself with the CAS appeal determination with regard to the results of the UEFA proceedings, especially as new emails appeared thereafter.
  3. The PL's investigatory powers should have been exercised with respect to matters of legitimate interest based on the information it had about MCFC, rather than a so-called fishing expedition with a wider scope aimed at finding any wrongdoing (including concerning matters not previously alleged or suspected) on the club's part.
  4. The PL and City did have High Court hearings aimed at settling areas of dispute with regard to the investigation, so one presumes that the investigation was ultimately carried out in a way the court was satisfied with and we needn't have concerns about the scenario.
  5. The PL has clearly put great effort into winning this case, given the time the investigation took, the length of the eventual hearing before the Panel, the eminence and specialisms of the lawyers representing the PL before the Panel, and the vast cost of the entire exercise, running into tens of millions.
  6. One wouldn't ordinarily expect an authority in the PL's permission to pursue a process that would result in a hearing before a Panel such as this one by making a series of accusations that it doesn't believe it has a reasonable chance of substantiating.
Even in the light of all that, I see only two possible options: either City are correct in the club's assertion to the effect that we will be able to demonstrate its innocence of all major charges, while the PL has pursued a process based on accusations it isn't likely to be able to substantiate to the required standard of proof; or the PL has pursued a process based on accusations it has at least a reasonable prospect of substantiating, and City's confidence as stated above is misplaced.

I know where I'd place my money. The PL has faced a difficult task to meet the necessary standard of proof with regard to the matters it needs to prove, and it's not easy to see where that evidence will come from or how the PL could realistically have procured the evidence they need. In addition, what we've called on here the 'soft signals' all point in one way, which offers a degree of comfort to us even though it's only a limited one.

That said, although I haven't really been in practice as a lawyer for a while, my previous training and professional experience has made me cautious. As a result, I'm certainly not going to give a definitive opinion on evidence I haven't seen that's outside the public domain. The case, as ever, turns on the evidence and no one on here can yet know for sure where it points.

brilliant as always.

one thing that has always concerned me has been, in your words, the entirely reasonable assumption that the PL wouldn't have accused the club in this way without being confident of having a strong case. given the huge cost and reputational damage that the PL themselves incur. Against that you have City's apparent confidence. But City have no choice but to exude confidence. The PL appear to have had a choice, City didn't.

having said that, i do think it a witch hunt. i do think city are innocent of deliberate foul play. but i'm not 100% convinced that we haven't broken the rules by interpreting them differently.
 
You're perfectly correct that no one on here knows what the evidence is that's been presented so we're largely all guessing.

But surely there's a fundamental dichotomy in any legal case that involves a court or arbitration. One side believe they have an actionable case and the other believe they've a sound defence against that case.

I think that the real dichotomy is that the legally-trained posters on here, whose input has been brilliant and Invaluable, start from a position that the rule of law, and the process around applying that, is fundamentally sound and that the sole concern is upholding that law and trusting the process. Whereas the non-legally trained, hardened old cynics like me see it differently. ;-)

Personally, I am in the middle. I think it most likely the PL were right to start the investigation and were right to refer the alleged breaches to the disciplinary process, but don't have a chance of landing the most serious charges. That means no-one agrees with me in this somewhat binary debate but, on the brighter side, it means I will eventually be half-right, whatever happens :D
 
Actually, they don’t. What they all recognise I think is that within any large regulatory body there will be a number of actors who all have their different motivations. With the CPS for instance there may be some who are very keen to devote resources to particular types of crime, some may be ambitious hot shots willing to go after a perceived untouchable, some may have personal motivations for wanting to prosecute particular types
of crimes, there may be directives from on high they are under pressure to comply with.

It is very likely the same with the PL. it is unlikely that the PL was under no pressure at all from certain quarters to bring proceedings against City. It is possible some within the decision making pyramid were so keen to bring proceedings they rather overlooked the evidential hurdles they would face. There may have been some who think charging City was necessary even if the prospects of success were low so as to avoid allegations of complicity and cover up. There may be some who thought the evidence against City was overwhelming.

You factor in the number of charges and the period in question and the charging decision seems stranger, and more potentially the product of wider influences being brought to bear. However until we know what evidence the PL are relying on, we’re guessing. What we know however that charging decisions like this are made with the input of a variety of individuals all of whom have their own interests and reasons in mind in recommending that charges are brought. It is possible that some of those concerns are illegitimate, it is highly unlikely that they all were.

What the lawyers in the thread have faith in, I think, is the quality of the eventual process. The APT arbitration shows that when you put flimsy reasoning before a high quality tribunal you get torn to pieces. I think we all hope that is what will happen here, and the difficulties the PL face have been commented on at some length. But until we know what the evidence is, as I say, we’re guessing.
Great post Chris. I entirely agree about having faith in the process where evidence is being presented to a panel of experienced professionals.

That's a much sounder one than where these silver-tongued charlatans in their horsehair wigs are faced with a jury of the great unwashed. ;-)
 
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Actually, they don’t. What they all recognise I think is that within any large regulatory body there will be a number of actors who all have their different motivations. With the CPS for instance there may be some who are very keen to devote resources to particular types of crime, some may be ambitious hot shots willing to go after a perceived untouchable, some may have personal motivations for wanting to prosecute particular types
of crimes, there may be directives from on high they are under pressure to comply with.

It is very likely the same with the PL. it is unlikely that the PL was under no pressure at all from certain quarters to bring proceedings against City. It is possible some within the decision making pyramid were so keen to bring proceedings they rather overlooked the evidential hurdles they would face. There may have been some who think charging City was necessary even if the prospects of success were low so as to avoid allegations of complicity and cover up. There may be some who thought the evidence against City was overwhelming.

You factor in the number of charges and the period in question and the charging decision seems stranger, and more potentially the product of wider influences being brought to bear. However until we know what evidence the PL are relying on, we’re guessing. What we know however that charging decisions like this are made with the input of a variety of individuals all of whom have their own interests and reasons in mind in recommending that charges are brought. It is possible that some of those concerns are illegitimate, it is highly unlikely that they all were.

What the lawyers in the thread have faith in, I think, is the quality of the eventual process. The APT arbitration shows that when you put flimsy reasoning before a high quality tribunal you get torn to pieces. I think we all hope that is what will happen here, and the difficulties the PL face have been commented on at some length. But until we know what the evidence is, as I say, we’re guessing.
Yes - I'm certainly not approaching it from a purely legal perspective and nor is my experience purely legal. Litigation, disputes and investigations necessitate lots of stepping back from the legals and looking at the commercials/political. It is a nuanced bundle of factors that both lead to cases being launched and not settled.

The real dichotomy is the weight one gives to conspiracy theory (on both sides). I happen to think almost all of it is total nonsense and whenever you want to look for conspiracy, just assume either it isn't there or it is mere incompetence. Anyway, back to listening to Candace Owens explaining how Jews all got a text message about 9/11
 
Personally, I am in the middle. I think it most likely the PL were right to start the investigation and were right to refer the alleged breaches to the disciplinary process, but don't have a chance of landing the most serious charges. That means no-one agrees with me in this somewhat binary debate but, on the brighter side, it means I will eventually be half-right, whatever happens :D
I think you're probably right.
 
You're perfectly correct that no one on here knows what the evidence is that's been presented so we're largely all guessing.

But surely there's a fundamental dichotomy in any legal case that involves a court or arbitration. One side believe they have an actionable case and the other believe they've a sound defence against that case.

I think that the real dichotomy is that the legally-trained posters on here, whose input has been brilliant and Invaluable, start from a position that the rule of law, and the process around applying that, is fundamentally sound and that the sole concern is upholding that law and trusting the process. Whereas the non-legally trained, hardened old cynics like me see it differently. ;-)

Chris has very helpfully replied while I was off training a bunch of lawyers for just over an hour, so just a couple of brief things in addition:
  • In most arbitral proceedings, the respective parties will think they have a case that ranges between arguable and strong, but City's public comments, starting with the interview Soriano gave to Chris Bailey in the immediate aftermath of UEFA banning City for two years (the fifth anniversary of which falls later this week, btw), have gone way beyond what's usual for a litigant wishing to sound bullish about its prospects, and I regard that as significant.
  • I, and I think other lawyers on here, are perfectly willing to countenance the possibility that the PL may have pursued these accusations despite not having sufficient evidence really to justify doing so, but I won't assume that it must inevitably be the case given the effort and expense the PL have put into the endeavour - and if City prevail, I'll be delighted, obviously, but will remain entirely comfortable that this was the better line to take at this particular time.
 
Personally, I am in the middle. I think it most likely the PL were right to start the investigation and were right to refer the alleged breaches to the disciplinary process, but don't have a chance of landing the most serious charges. That means no-one agrees with me in this somewhat binary debate but, on the brighter side, it means I will eventually be half-right, whatever happens :D

It's not so much that, IMO. I'd say that non-lawyers are just less comfortable expressing themselves in fairly categorical terms. You've written, "I think it most likely the PL ... don't have a chance of landing the most serious charges." Now, "most likely" does qualify your statement a bit but you're still sounding very confident.

I take the point made yesterday by @gordondaviesmoustache that not all lawyers are inherently cautious. However, a lot of us spend our time trying to caveat everything for a living and it comes across in many lawyers' assessments on here.
 
brilliant as always.

one thing that has always concerned me has been, in your words, the entirely reasonable assumption that the PL wouldn't have accused the club in this way without being confident of having a strong case. given the huge cost and reputational damage that the PL themselves incur. Against that you have City's apparent confidence. But City have no choice but to exude confidence. The PL appear to have had a choice, City didn't.

having said that, i do think it a witch hunt. i do think city are innocent of deliberate foul play. but i'm not 100% convinced that we haven't broken the rules by interpreting them differently.

I think we will find the truth will be somewhere in the middle. It won't have been a witch-hunt and the PL won't have gone into this expecting to "win". And they won't.

It's OK to be in the middle :) It's warm and cuddly.
 

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