I posted what you've replied to quickly while I was on the tram going home. then was out for the evening.
Having reflected I agree that my language was imprecise and there's no doubt that in the worst case scenario these are potentially serious charges. That worst case scenario involves us deliberately concealing legitimate expenses via Fordham and Al Jazira, and also deliberately reporting equity contributions that should go into the balance sheet as revenue. Additionally, by doing that we've presented a false picture of our finances (a potential criminal offence in itself) and have also misstated our finances vis-a-vis the PL and UEFA's financial control rules. So, yes, that certainly would entail serious consequences if proven.
My position however is that this worst case scenario is a false one.
So you could take the view that these were fraudulent arrangements, knowingly entered into to hide expenses, or you could take the view that these were maybe artificial contracts but there was nothing illegitimate about them and that they were within rules that existed at the time, maybe at worst pushing the boundaries of the letter of those rules. My view is the latter opinion. And even if we take the worst case scenario view, it's probably unlikely there will have been any impact on FFP or the PL's Short Term Cost Control rules that were in force at the time.
- The Mancini contract is a complete red herring, involving a total sum of less than £6m over three years when we reported huge losses. And if the PL has thrown that red herring into the pot, some on here feel it really can't be too confident in the rest of its case. The possible real reason for that contract w not to hide what should have been legitimate expenses off the books but to either carry on a contract that might have been in place prior to Mancini joining us, or to confer some tax advantage to him.
- The Fordham one wasn't done to conceal expenses but was a device to increase revenue in 2012/13 in order to try to take advantage of the Annex XI provisions. Had we known in 2011/12 that we were never going to meet the requirements then I very much doubt we'd have entered into the arrangement. And we know that UEFA discussed this with us around 2014 or 2015, and no charges ever arose from that.
Then there's the sponsorship charges, where we're assuming that there's potentially
The first is potentially the most serious of all the charges, but unless the PL have a smoking gun that UEFA didn't have, that's unlikely to succeed. And, as I've said, the only snippet I've heard on this is that we presented the same evidence to the IC as we presented to CAS. But of course we don't know yet hat the PL found as part of its discovery process.
- A second attempt to challenge the legitimacy of those sponsorships in some way, meaning that we've significantly overstated our revenue and have deliberately misreported equity investment as revenue
- An attempt to prove we've misreported related parties.
The related party issue, as I've said before, is one that runs through all our previous entanglements with the authorities, from the 2014 settlement, via CAS and the APT rule through to these charges. This will be the first time it's been properly tested and it would be a major shock if the Abu Dhabi companies were declared to be related parties by the IC. Our auditors, as Stefan has said, will want to be 200% sure of their ground on this, and that's not changed their view in the slightest. And even on the off chance that the IC did come down on the PL's side, then there has been nothing more han a technical misreporting, rather than financial chicanery.
So these are potentially serious charges I agree but my view is that the scenarios that make them serious (deliberate concealment) probably didn't exist.
Maybe you're being ultra-curious and maybe I'm being over#confident. We'll only know when we hear the outcome though.
Im absolutely the same. The levels of arrogance and ineptitude required if we are actually guilty of what’s being alleged is so far off the charts I just can’t imagine successful business people like Khaldoon etc being guilty of it.Ironically, the seriousness of the allegations is one of the reasons I am so confident of the outcome. It raises the level of evidence required by the PL way above anything they will be able to provide, imho.
Im absolutely the same. The levels of arrogance and ineptitude required if we are actually guilty of what’s being alleged is so far off the charts I just can’t imagine successful business people like Khaldoon etc being guilty of it.
Not only that, but the basic premise is incredible. That, on the one hand, Mansour is so influential that he can tell a heavily regulated state-owned company like Etihad to enter into a sponsorship agreement well above the amount they wanted to pay and that he would top up the difference yet, on the other hand, he isn't influential enough just to tell one of the richest governments in the world to put another 50 million a year in directly themselves above the one billion a year they were putting in in the first place. Which is it?
All this before we even talk about evidence and counter-evidence.
This is laughable—there is absolutely no logic behind the idea that Sheikh Mansour would use his own money to top up Etihad's sponsorship of City. Pure madness. It was perfectly explained in CAS why and how the sponsorship funds were allocated. One must understand that Etihad is a national project and the backbone of Abu Dhabi's ambition to become the wealthy and cultured man's Dubai.That’s the bit that gets me……
We are state owned but in order for the state owned airline to sponsor us they need to borrow money off the bloke who’s just the cover for the state.
It’s fucking mental…..
I posted what you've replied to quickly while I was on the tram going home. then was out for the evening.
Having reflected I agree that my language was imprecise and there's no doubt that in the worst case scenario these are potentially serious charges. That worst case scenario involves us deliberately concealing legitimate expenses via Fordham and Al Jazira, and also deliberately reporting equity contributions that should go into the balance sheet as revenue. Additionally, by doing that we've presented a false picture of our finances (a potential criminal offence in itself) and have also misstated our finances vis-a-vis the PL and UEFA's financial control rules. So, yes, that certainly would entail serious consequences if proven.
My position however is that this worst case scenario is a false one.
So you could take the view that these were fraudulent arrangements, knowingly entered into to hide expenses, or you could take the view that these were maybe artificial contracts but there was nothing illegitimate about them and that they were within rules that existed at the time, maybe at worst pushing the boundaries of the letter of those rules. My view is the latter opinion. And even if we take the worst case scenario view, it's probably unlikely there will have been any impact on FFP or the PL's Short Term Cost Control rules that were in force at the time.
- The Mancini contract is a complete red herring, involving a total sum of less than £6m over three years when we reported huge losses. And if the PL has thrown that red herring into the pot, some on here feel it really can't be too confident in the rest of its case. The possible real reason for that contract w not to hide what should have been legitimate expenses off the books but to either carry on a contract that might have been in place prior to Mancini joining us, or to confer some tax advantage to him.
- The Fordham one wasn't done to conceal expenses but was a device to increase revenue in 2012/13 in order to try to take advantage of the Annex XI provisions. Had we known in 2011/12 that we were never going to meet the requirements then I very much doubt we'd have entered into the arrangement. And we know that UEFA discussed this with us around 2014 or 2015, and no charges ever arose from that.
Then there's the sponsorship charges, where we're assuming that there's potentially
The first is potentially the most serious of all the charges, but unless the PL have a smoking gun that UEFA didn't have, that's unlikely to succeed. And, as I've said, the only snippet I've heard on this is that we presented the same evidence to the IC as we presented to CAS. But of course we don't know yet hat the PL found as part of its discovery process.
- A second attempt to challenge the legitimacy of those sponsorships in some way, meaning that we've significantly overstated our revenue and have deliberately misreported equity investment as revenue
- An attempt to prove we've misreported related parties.
The related party issue, as I've said before, is one that runs through all our previous entanglements with the authorities, from the 2014 settlement, via CAS and the APT rule through to these charges. This will be the first time it's been properly tested and it would be a major shock if the Abu Dhabi companies were declared to be related parties by the IC. Our auditors, as Stefan has said, will want to be 200% sure of their ground on this, and that's not changed their view in the slightest. And even on the off chance that the IC did come down on the PL's side, then there has been nothing more han a technical misreporting, rather than financial chicanery.
So these are potentially serious charges I agree but my view is that the scenarios that make them serious (deliberate concealment) probably didn't exist.
Maybe you're being ultra-curious and maybe I'm being over#confident. We'll only know when we hear the outcome though.
Well said mate. Let’s hope the above plays out just as you have outlined.My comfort and confidence and certainly not hubris regarding the most serious charges, is that in order for any document, group of documents or evidence to be any kind of "smoking gun", it must sufficiently i.e. more likely than not, prove that City and its directors, employees, auditors, accountants, several huge company sponsors and their directors all conspired in some multi faceted corporate fraudulent activity to benefit City by, in effect, by our ownership paying our sponsorship money.
I simply don't believe that happened. If you can believe that one thing, then the evidence required cannot exist.
If you can take that step, then in order for the PL to prove its case they must have to rely on lots of circumstantial evidence pointing to a probability of those events having occurred and that evidence sufficiently outweighing all of City's rebuttal evidence, owners, directors and employees testimony, our own and 3rd party documentation proving we did nothing wrong.
Again if you believe that it didn't happen it would seem that this must be an impossible task for the PL.
It must follow in the event of a "not proven" case and i wont include any of the none co-operation allegations in that statement, that the PL have some serious questions to answer in respect of this case and the way it has been investigated, conducted and prosecuted. That would be particularly more likely if the panel are critical of the PL in their findings. I am particularly eager to find out what additional evidence was discovered that prompted such numerous and widespread charges!
I cannot see how Masters and Brittain survive such a finding and surely the calls for external regulation would follow, more loudly than ever.
Not long now. Keep the faith blues.
I've had two news stories today telling me we're getting a two year transfer ban, which given our current squad would be worse than relegation and this one.......looks like we're fucked as I'm sure Football365 is quite reputable......
View attachment 147527
Meanwhile, at Cayman Towers, it's perfectly fine to owe £414 million in unpaid transfer fees to the clubs from whom they bought the likes of Anthony & Casemiro.
Yep, nothing to see here, move on.
If there was even a sniff of serious fraud they would not be monitoring. They would be activeley investigating some potentialy serious criminal offences.The SFO may or may not be monitoring. But right now it tells us nothing because we don’t know.
Good post mate.Joking aside, where did I first hear that HHSM could have simply provided the club with an interest-free loan of £600m instead of going through all the hassle of the Etihad sponsorship? I’ll tell you exactly where—right here on BMF.
At the time, it seemed like just another example of the "whataboutery" we’re so often accused of by the likes of Ronay and Harris in the soon-to-be-obsolete legacy media. But lo and behold, three years later, it came back to haunt the red tops in a big way. As we all know, this ultimately rendered the APT framework unlawful.
When Khaldoon said, “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones,” this was precisely the kind of hypocrisy he was referring to. So, one day, there may indeed be something very, very interesting to see here...
Yeah but their debt is organic & they can pay the bills….well that’s what my rag mate tells meGood post mate.
Just a quick scan of the rags 23/24 accounts and its plainly obvious (and joyous) how deep in the shit that club is. They're fucking potless. But allowed to owe fellow "football family" clubs £414 million in transfer fees.
FOUR HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN MILLION POUNDS.
Just think about that figure for a minute. It's scandalous. 75% of their debt is transfer fees they haven't paid in full. Now, I get it that the fees are structured and on the never-never, but there surely has to be a cap on the total liabilities any one club can owe to other clubs. It'll be half a BILLION next year.
I'm no accountant but if the worst (or best) happens and they go bust, they take a lot of other clubs with them. In my business, if we can't afford to pay our bills as they become due, we're insolvent. End of. Lay off the staff. Lock the fucking doors. Directors facing bankruptcy.
PSR was brought in to protect clubs and stop unsustainable spending. Well, those bastards in Stretford are taking the piss.
But, let's go after Citeh, the nouveau rich plastics, because that redtop-sponsored PL crusade will deflect attention from the real cheats.
Fucking sickens me, and I pray to God, the whole lot crumbles and burns. Like you, I've got a feeling our very own General Khaldoon will ride a tank right through the lot of the cunts.
I thank you.
Good post mate.
Just a quick scan of the rags 23/24 accounts and its plainly obvious (and joyous) how deep in the shit that club is. They're fucking potless. But allowed to owe fellow "football family" clubs £414 million in transfer fees.
FOUR HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN MILLION POUNDS.
Just think about that figure for a minute. It's scandalous. 75% of their debt is transfer fees they haven't paid in full. Now, I get it that the fees are structured and on the never-never, but there surely has to be a cap on the total liabilities any one club can owe to other clubs. It'll be half a BILLION next year.
I'm no accountant but if the worst (or best) happens and they go bust, they take a lot of other clubs with them. In my business, if we can't afford to pay our bills as they become due, we're insolvent. End of. Lay off the staff. Lock the fucking doors. Directors facing bankruptcy.
PSR was brought in to protect clubs and stop unsustainable spending. Well, those bastards in Stretford are taking the piss.
But, let's go after Citeh, the nouveau rich plastics, because that redtop-sponsored PL crusade will deflect attention from the real cheats.
Fucking sickens me, and I pray to God, the whole lot crumbles and burns. Like you, I've got a feeling our very own General Khaldoon will ride a tank right through the lot of the cunts.
I thank you.
Most of their “stars” are ageing and have little resale value. They haven’t really developed a young player for a while. The reality is that they need to buy cheap, develop a player or two and sell as high as possible.Joking aside, where did I first hear that HHSM could have simply provided the club with an interest-free loan of £600m instead of going through all the hassle of the Etihad sponsorship? I’ll tell you exactly where—right here on BMF.
At the time, it seemed like just another example of the "whataboutery" we’re so often accused of by the likes of Ronay and Harris in the soon-to-be-obsolete legacy media. But lo and behold, three years later, it came back to haunt the red tops in a big way. As we all know, this ultimately rendered the APT framework unlawful.
When Khaldoon said, “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones,” this was precisely the kind of hypocrisy he was referring to. So, one day, there may indeed be something very, very interesting to see here...
Please, make this happen.Most of their “stars” are ageing and have little resale value. They haven’t really developed a young player for a while. The reality is that they need to buy cheap, develop a player or two and sell as high as possible.
In essence, they have no choice but to become a selling club. The Brighton model. Imagine the meltdown of the raggy hordes as they sell that player, if he comes along.
Gluten free tooYeah but their debt is organic & they can pay the bills….well that’s what my rag mate tells me
And fucking talent free !Gluten free too
Good post mate.
Just a quick scan of the rags 23/24 accounts and its plainly obvious (and joyous) how deep in the shit that club is. They're fucking potless. But allowed to owe fellow "football family" clubs £414 million in transfer fees.
FOUR HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN MILLION POUNDS.
Just think about that figure for a minute. It's scandalous. 75% of their debt is transfer fees they haven't paid in full. Now, I get it that the fees are structured and on the never-never, but there surely has to be a cap on the total liabilities any one club can owe to other clubs. It'll be half a BILLION next year.
I'm no accountant but if the worst (or best) happens and they go bust, they take a lot of other clubs with them. In my business, if we can't afford to pay our bills as they become due, we're insolvent. End of. Lay off the staff. Lock the fucking doors. Directors facing bankruptcy.
PSR was brought in to protect clubs and stop unsustainable spending. Well, those bastards in Stretford are taking the piss.
But, let's go after Citeh, the nouveau rich plastics, because that redtop-sponsored PL crusade will deflect attention from the real cheats.
Fucking sickens me, and I pray to God, the whole lot crumbles and burns. Like you, I've got a feeling our very own General Khaldoon will ride a tank right through the lot of the cunts.
I thank you.