Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

It is a video yes, we are hundreds of miles away from Gaza and in our own world. For this video, feel the emotions and experience of a parent.



Israel has been killing more than two thousand children between the year 2000 and 2023 before 7 October 2023. For 2023 alone before 7 October, 52 children were killed by the IDF.

Before the creation of Hamas in 1987, more than 50 children had been killed annually but not included in reports on conflict. On the Intifada conflict itself 237 children were shot and killed by IDF. Several videos have been circulating in the 90s. Remember one video when a group of IDF soldiers chased 2 children (Wael and Osamah) while they were grazing sheep, caught up on them, and literally broke their bones by twisting the children’s arms until they broke and smashinh stones on their bones to cause bone breaks? There was video recording. One of the many attacks on children that in the months after spawned Hamas.

 

[Blue Maverick]

It is a video yes, we are hundreds of miles away from Gaza and in our own world. For this video, feel the emotions and experience of a parent.



Israel has been killing more than two thousand children between the year 2000 and 2023 before 7 October 2023. For 2023 alone before 7 October, 52 children were killed by the IDF.

Before the creation of Hamas in 1987, more than 50 children had been killed annually but not included in reports on conflict. On the Intifada conflict itself 237 children were shot and killed by IDF. Several videos have been circulating in the 90s. Remember one video when a group of IDF soldiers chased 2 children (Wael and Osamah) while they were grazing sheep, caught up on them, and literally broke their bones by twisting the children’s arms until they broke and smashinh stones on their bones to cause bone breaks? There was video recording. One of the many attacks on children that in the months after spawned Hamas.

Looks the same age as my daughter, if they did this to her how do you think I’d react, they are making thousands of fighters for every child they kill. October 7th was an abomination but this is on another level, there is no excuse anymore, genocide.

 

[Blue and true]

So where should the Israeli's reside?

Maybe they could reside in the land they were gifted and not encroach, abuse and liquidate the people's that live outside those defined boundaries (like they've been doing for nearly a century)? Just a thought.

 

[Blue and true]

Looks the same age as my daughter, if they did this to her how do you think I’d react, they are making thousands of fighters for every child they kill. October 7th was an abomination but this is on another level, there is no excuse anymore, genocide.

And they've been committing this genocide long before the atrocity of Oct 7th. An inconvenient truth for some.

 

[Postman Pep]

Well, I am only talking about the people who were captured on 7/10.

Some of whom were soldiers on active duty. You appeared to suggest that combatants were fair game or does that just apply to Palestinians?

Maybe if the Palestinians or Hamas, could release hostages without making a huge fuss and carnival about it... then again maybe not?

Maybe what? The Israelis would play nice?

Still I think I understand where your views lie, so lets just leave it there shall we?

Not too difficult. I don't pretend to be non partisan ..... unlike yourself.

After all the Palestinians are never going to sign up to the two state solution.

What 2 state solution? What solution are they refusing to sign up to? Which party needs to make serious concessions to make it remotely viable?

I won't wish you luck in your quest to rid the earth of the Israelis.

Again every accusation is a confession. Must be difficult trying so hard to not come across as an apologist for a genocidal regime.

 

[Vic]

Lunch today with my non-practising Jewish friend - grandfather got out of 1930s Poland, great uncle stayed and died. He was thrown out of online Yiddish class for not supporting Israel (before 7 October). We were talking about new documentary film War Paint about women war artists, featuring Rachel Whiteread's Holocaust Memorial in Vienna, and the story of Doris Zinkeisen, who did murals on Cunard liners in the 30s and was a stage and costume designer for London theatres, then joined the British liberation forces in 1945 and ended up sketching in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

In terms of the current situation, his assessment was simple - the abused have become abusers.

 

[bluethrunthru]

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

I think we have, haven’t we? Heard something from Lammy and McFadden this morning.

He's gone back on it. Pathetic:



This came after priti patel told him to apologize - "we undermine our relationship and influence with israel":



Priti patel was sacked in 2017 for secret meetings and was trying to send British aid money to the Israeli army:

Priti Patel discussed giving British foreign aid money to Israeli army during secret meetings, Downing Street confirms

Number 10 highlights that country's armed forces run field hospital for Syrian refugees in Golan Heights - where the UK does not recognise Israel's permanent presence

www.independent.co.uk

At least we've learned who runs our country these days

 

[TinFoilHat]

He's gone back on it. Pathetic:



This came after priti patel told him to apologize - "we undermine our relationship and influence with israel":



Priti patel was sacked in 2017 for secret meetings and was trying to send British aid money to the Israeli army:

Priti Patel discussed giving British foreign aid money to Israeli army during secret meetings, Downing Street confirms

Number 10 highlights that country's armed forces run field hospital for Syrian refugees in Golan Heights - where the UK does not recognise Israel's permanent presence

www.independent.co.uk

At least we've learned who runs our country these days

Her dispatch speech was written by the IDF. It had the full Palestine bingo card shoed in.

 

[Postman Pep]

He's gone back on it. Pathetic:



This came after priti patel told him to apologize - "we undermine our relationship and influence with israel":



Priti patel was sacked in 2017 for secret meetings and was trying to send British aid money to the Israeli army:

Priti Patel discussed giving British foreign aid money to Israeli army during secret meetings, Downing Street confirms

Number 10 highlights that country's armed forces run field hospital for Syrian refugees in Golan Heights - where the UK does not recognise Israel's permanent presence

www.independent.co.uk

At least we've learned who runs our country these days

Inevitable given he was immediately slapped down by Starmer. The new party line appears to be wait for a verdict from the international court and not rushing to judgement. Rules based order and all that. Spineless cunts.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Looks the same age as my daughter, if they did this to her how do you think I’d react, they are making thousands of fighters for every child they kill. October 7th was an abomination but this is on another level, there is no excuse anymore, genocide.

Fair point and I totally understand. My problem is I see the issue on 7/10 which I think was unprovoked, in exactly the same way. Had an of my children been at that music event and either killed or kidnapped I would have...... Like you say there are no excuses anymore on either genocide.

Unnecessary killings on both sides.

 

[Postman Pep]

Every word of this from the excellent Richard Sanders

 

[BlueTG]

Fair point and I totally understand. My problem is I see the issue on 7/10 which I think was unprovoked, in exactly the same way. Had an of my children been at that music event and either killed or kidnapped I would have...... Like you say there are no excuses anymore on either genocide.

Unnecessary killings on both sides.

But it wasn’t unprovoked, it’s a retaliation. Following the decades of subjugation of the Palestinians, through land grabbing and murdering. Israel as a country are not innocent victims to an unprovoked attack, however much it is sad innocent Israeli’s were most likely caught up in it.

 

[Blue Mist]

Fair point and I totally understand. My problem is I see the issue on 7/10 which I think was unprovoked, in exactly the same way. Had an of my children been at that music event and either killed or kidnapped I would have...... Like you say there are no excuses anymore on either genocide.

Unnecessary killings on both sides.

Again you focus on one day.

If the Palestinian people had that luxury we wouldn't be having this debate. Every single day is a 7/10 for them.

 

[cucumberman]

Fair point and I totally understand. My problem is I see the issue on 7/10 which I think was unprovoked, in exactly the same way. Had an of my children been at that music event and either killed or kidnapped I would have...... Like you say there are no excuses anymore on either genocide.

Unnecessary killings on both sides.

Think both sides. And don’t base thinking on assumptions, base thinking on facts.

Understand how Zionists are hellbent to colonize Palestine since 1890s in the many archived newspapers declaring Palestine colonization.

If based on colonization, your belief is that colonization is based on land purchase, I now provide you more information. Between 1890 and up to 1947, foreign Jews and Zionists purchased 6.6% of Palestinian land. That is their legal ownership rights no question. From the 6.6% Palestinian purchased land, 52.6% of those 6.6% were land Zionists purchased from local Palestinian Jews, and 24.6% of the 6.6% were land Zionists purchased from local Palestinian Arabs. Simply, Zionists bought approx. 3.3% of 100% Palestine from Palestine Jews, and 1.5% of 100% from Palestine Arabs. Legal ownership. The fact that land ownerships do exist and understood by Zionists, Palestinians (Arabs and Jews and others), and British ( based on Ottoman land ownership of Palestinians) determine that during that time of British Mandate of Palestine, Palestine land is owned by Palestinians and there are Palestine land gazette records based on Ottoman governance.

1947 is when legal ownership became forgotten. Yes 6.6% are owned by Zionists, but the remaining 59% of Palestine given to the State of Israel (66.4%) are owned by Palestinians.

1948 was when Palestinians were forcefully displaced and massacres were conducted.

That is the beginning of the provocation.

Over the years the 59% (in the 66.4%) of Palestinian owned grew to 78% of Palestine land by method of war colonization. And beyond the 78% (which is the additional 8% thus 86%) is by method of occupation. Hence why Palestinians now only have the Gaza Strip, and the patches of culdesacs in West Bank.

Since you use think, here I give you an analogy. If a bullying gang decide and made to take ownership of your house and land, which you legally own (or pay rent to own), and evict you out; and then after no law defends your rights and no appeals and begs you conduct work, your last resort is to violence — can the gang claim to the law that your violence on the gang is unprovoked? Imagine how you feel that the law is against you, the gang is against you, others don’t bother, and you lost all avenues other than being homeless.

There’s a reason why militias exist. Like Home security for the house you were stolen. Firstly, They don’t want 86% become 100%; Palestine erase from the map. If the first is secured then Secondly, they want the 86% revert back to 66%; Palestine revert back to the Oslo accords. If the second is secured then Thirdly, they want a 50%/50% rights; a two-state solution as how the Palestinians agreed, albeit reluctantly, before the Israel independence, which was a clause agreed in 1941 between Zionists and Palestinians, but ultimately omitted out of the clause behind the backs of Palestinian representatives of the future State of Israel, and then publicly declared in 1948.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Murder.

Your lad/girl just been killed, slaughtered, blown apart. Hole in head, limb gone, how would I/you take that?

 

[BigJoe#1]

Murder.

Your lad/girl just been killed, slaughtered, blown apart. Hole in head, limb gone, how would I/you take that?

Probably like yourself not very well at all. Me personally, regardless of which side I happened to be on (people in the main don't choose their side they are born into it) I would want it to stop! If releasing the 7/10 hostages might stand a chance of realising this then I, again regardless of which side I was on, then I would want the hostages released.

 

[Don Karleone]

Probably like yourself not very well at all. Me personally, regardless of which side I happened to be on (people in the main don't choose their side they are born into it) I would want it to stop! If releasing the 7/10 hostages might stand a chance of realising this then I, again regardless of which side I was on, then I would want the hostages released.

The Israeli Government do not give two hoots about the hostages. If Hamas released them all today, they would ramp up the killing if that's even possible.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Since you use think, here I give you an analogy. If a bullying gang decide and made to take ownership of your house and land, which you legally own (or pay rent to own), and evict you out; and then after no law defends your rights and no appeals and begs you conduct work, your last resort is to violence — can the gang claim to the law that your violence on the gang is unprovoked? Imagine how you feel that the law is against you, the gang is against you, others don’t bother, and you lost all avenues other than being homeless.

Thank you for an interesting synopsis... it with all the numbers will take some time to full digest, however, I fully get your thrust.

The analogy you provide does not in my opinion justify what the Palestinians did on 7/10... no way no how. You might find it acceptable in the circumstances but I do not.... but what do our opinions matter anyway?

My view now is that the best chance the Palestinians have of stopping the Israeli's from continually bombing them is to hand back the hostages. If they for whatever reason(s) choose not to then I'm afraid it looks ver likely the attacks on Hamas will prevail and as a consequence we will see more sickening Palestinians being killed.

Hamas has an opportunity to try and put an end to the killings... will they succeed or will they fail nobody really knows, but the opportunity to try is available to them.

Sadly, it is highly likely that if the hostages are held with no prospect of relief, this opportunity will pass. It is up to Hamas to decide.

 

[BigJoe#1]

The Israeli Government do not give two hoots about the hostages. If Hamas released them all today, they would ramp up the killing if that's even possible.

Maybe, maybe not.... but what we can be reasonably certain of is that if Hamas do not release the hostages the attacks will definitely continue Hamas and many more needless deaths will continue.