Adolescence

[Bigga]

I think 'incel' is a self-selecting group. In theory, it's 'involuntary celibate' but in reality that definition basically includes most young men most of the time, and almost all teenage boys. I still remember throughout my uni days and early 20s going out to nightclubs with me and my friends standing around like losers trying to pluck up the courage to approach a girl and then inevitably getting rejected when we did, because we'd tried to chat up the hottest girl in the club after spending 15 minutes hovering near her. And the few times you did manage to pull, unsurprisingly, it was usually with someone who was about your level, or with someone you already knew well enough for them to like you. That a completely normal formative experience, which is why basically every teen movie is based around it.

'Incel' in the modern sense though combines this with a whole host of additional values and opinions about the reasons for this. And it basically seems to come down to blaming women, feminism, and a wider society that apparently privileges women for their woes. They also seem to view relationships as some sort of transactional business deal.

I remember reading an article written by a guy I kind of knew probably around 15-20 years ago now, long before all of this incel stuff existed, and it was titled 'Why being a nice guy isn't enough.' Basically about how 'nice' is an absolute bear minimum, but some men treat it like it's something women should be falling over themselves for. So this is definitely not a new phenomenon. Nor are these the first people to blame the opposite sex en masse for their woes (plenty of women do this too). But now, 15 years later 'nice guy' is an ironic nickname for men who act nice at first then suddenly turn when she says she's not interested.

I read this a couple of times and agree with much of it. On second analysis the first sentence stands out very much to me. It's true and untrue at the same time.

One cannot "self select" if one is placed there by society or the opposite sex, in this case. "incels" are all around us that don't interest most women; the geek, the quiet lad, the socially awkward, the smaller than average height guy, the really heavy set guy. So, if you're young and fit these characteristics, you would be become 'involuntarily celibate' or 'unseen/ ignored'. Personally, I don't like the 'IC' terminology, it's demeaning to those that are not confident enough to change things.

But, that's where the much railed against "Red Pill" mantra comes in. Most people see the negative loud mouths in Tate. However, Tate also pushes the self discipline of mentality for males to change their own circumstances; training in the gym, eating right and change careers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. This positive is lost in the negative he's also associated with.

There will always be assholes that blame women for circumstances they themselves can change, but at the same time, women can also influence those accusations too within a group think about desires online that spill into real life. I described this as similar to 'art imitating life imitating art' earlier, but this concept was lost on another individual.

'Simping' is also a problem for male self-confidence linked to balance differentials, positive and negative, but that's a skew to a different pathway.

As for things being 'transactional', I think this attitude is mostly an American thing but is creeping in over here, without doubt, within younger demographics.

Finally, it seems 'bad boys' are exciting to most women. 'Bad' as in a sense of adventure to their lives and then 'settling' for the good guy after those 'exciting' adventures are over (most fail to turn a 'bad guy' good unless he wants to do that).

It's the way of the world that I've lived in, but everyone has a way of experiencing the world.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I don't think the study accounted for multi millionaire celebrity sportsmen and women

Well yeah, but the point is that as soon as someone gets the opportunity to 'punch above their weight' they almost always take it. So they're definitely not only attracted to people around the same level as them.

 

[Bigga]

I have read, and re read this, and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Perhaps I’m just not in the same ‘pay grade’ as your social media addled brain. I better watch some “Hoe Math” to get myself educated and on your lofty perch.

I think, mayhap, English is not your first language. Hard to absorb for you?

Cocker-knee doesn't count to the rest of us.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

One cannot "self select" if one is placed there by society or the opposite sex, in this case. "incels" are all around us that don't interest most women; the geek, the quiet lad, the socially awkward, the smaller than average height guy, the really heavy set guy. So, if you're young and fit these characteristics, you would be become 'involuntarily celibate' or 'unseen/ ignored'. Personally, I don't like the 'IC' terminology, it's demeaning to those that are not confident enough to change things.

I know plenty of geeky, socially awkward, quiet men who are married. Do you know who they marry? Geeky, socially awkward, quiet women. They play board games together and talk about videogames. I had a work colleague who in a 'getting to know you' team-building day did a presentation about how she likes to make potions in Skyrim, and when I met her husband, he was the biggest board game nerd I've ever met. Perfect couple. I've also got a female friend who's very shy with new people and has real trouble finding a partner. We even went to a singles night with her, but she didn't get anyone's number because she struggles to talk to new people. So this is not a men-only thing at all.

But, that's where the much railed against "Red Pill" mantra comes in. Most people see the negative loud mouths in Tate. However, Tate also pushes the self discipline of mentality for males to change their own circumstances; training in the gym, eating right and change careers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. This positive is lost in the negative he's also associated with.

There's some things wrong with that. It basically sells the narrative that there's something wrong with you that you need to fix in order to get a partner. There's nothing wrong with exercise, eating well and trying to get a good job. It's also obviously important to put yourself out there if you want to meet people. But what are you going to do? Cosplay as a gym obsessed, outgoing 'alpha' male to get a girl who'll dump you as soon as she finds out you're none of those things? Approach no-one until you've hit your gym goals, because no woman will like you until you've got a 20 inch bicep? Or actually lean into your interests and personality and find someone compatible with that? Obviously if there are things you don't like about yourself that you actually want to change, then there's nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of people out there telling young people they are wrong and then selling them the solution. It used to be the cosmetics industry, now it's every other grifter on social media.

 

[Bigga]

I know plenty of geeky, socially awkward, quiet men who are married. Do you know who they marry? Geeky, socially awkward, quiet women. They play board games together and talk about videogames. I had a work colleague who in a 'getting to know you' team-building day did a presentation about how she likes to make potions in Skyrim, and when I met her husband, he was the biggest board game nerd I've ever met. Perfect couple. I've also got a female friend who's very shy with new people and has real trouble finding a partner. We even went to a singles night with her, but she didn't get anyone's number because she struggles to talk to new people. So this is not a men-only thing at all.


There's some things wrong with that. It basically sells the narrative that there's something wrong with you that you need to fix in order to get a partner. There's nothing wrong with exercise, eating well and trying to get a good job. It's also obviously important to put yourself out there if you want to meet people. But what are you going to do? Cosplay as a gym obsessed, outgoing 'alpha' male to get a girl who'll dump you as soon as she finds out you're none of those things? Approach no-one until you've hit your gym goals, because no woman will like you until you've got a 20 inch bicep? Or actually lean into your interests and personality and find someone compatible with that? Obviously if there are things you don't like about yourself that you actually want to change, then there's nothing wrong with that. But there are a lot of people out there telling young people they are wrong and then selling them the solution. It used to be the cosmetics industry, now it's every other grifter on social media.

Geeks finding geeks is fine. As you've put before it about finding your level. But that would infer the 'Epidemic of Loneliness' is a false premise. is that your suggestion?

As for changing the mindset, it's more about changing the things you don't like about yourself, whether that be gym or otherwise for self-confidence.

It's not about 'alpha maledom'; that's a lowest denominator misdirect.

If women have an industry for self-confidence, what do men have?

 

[meltonblue]

The rest of my sentence said "easier in many ways but harder in many other ways".

I know, I don’t think it’s easier in many ways at all was my point.

 

[Blue and true]

I was told by a primary school teacher she was abused by parents for confiscating a vape

Doesn't surprise me at all. Teachers go above and beyond and they do it in thankless circumstances.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Just binge watched. Incredible piece of television.

 

[xmusampa]

I don't think the study accounted for multi millionaire celebrity sportsmen and women

So Debbie McGee what was it that first attracted you to multi millionaire Paul Daniels

 

[ROCKET80]

Geeks finding geeks is fine. As you've put before it about finding your level. But that would infer the 'Epidemic of Loneliness' is a false premise. is that your suggestion?

As for changing the mindset, it's more about changing the things you don't like about yourself, whether that be gym or otherwise for self-confidence.

It's not about 'alpha maledom'; that's a lowest denominator misdirect.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to change things about yourself to boost your confidence, whether that’s hitting the gym, learning a skill, or whatever works. The problem is when it stops being about self-improvement and starts being about dominance, control, and tearing others down, which is exactly what guys like Tate are selling

If women have an industry for self-confidence, what do men have?

We have our version, it's just packaged differently. There were glimpses of it back in the 90s with lads mags pushing a certain ideal, but the key difference now is that this generation of young men is experiencing, maybe for the first time, persistent societal pressure around image, achievement, and status. And just like with women, entire industries are built to exploit those insecurities, whether it’s selling the perfect body, the millionaire lifestyle, or the idea you’re not 'man enough' yet.

 

[Cellarite]

Just finished it now. Fuck me that was powerful. Me and my lad were in tears. It resonated so much because of what we’ve faced over the last two years. You try your best to be the best Dad.

 

[meltonblue]

Just finished it now. Fuck me that was powerful. Me and my lad were in tears. It resonated so much because of what we’ve faced over the last two years. You try your best to be the best Dad.

My wife watched it and was in tears. She’s told me it’s probably best I don’t watch it. Been through a lot close to home too and your last sentence there is spot on and all that anyone can ever try to be.

 

[Bigga]

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to change things about yourself to boost your confidence, whether that’s hitting the gym, learning a skill, or whatever works. The problem is when it stops being about self-improvement and starts being about dominance, control, and tearing others down, which is exactly what guys like Tate are selling

We have our version, it's just packaged differently. There were glimpses of it back in the 90s with lads mags pushing a certain ideal, but the key difference now is that this generation of young men is experiencing, maybe for the first time, persistent societal pressure around image, achievement, and status. And just like with women, entire industries are built to exploit those insecurities, whether it’s selling the perfect body, the millionaire lifestyle, or the idea you’re not 'man enough' yet.

Well, people are impressionable. Some more than others. Hasn't that always been the way? Some people can take what they need, advice-wise, and shape what they can from it. Others take it too far. Both "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" have this problem, except the male side is pushed more (more people have heard of misogyny than missandry, for example), which unbalances our society.
The sooner we accept that, the sooner we get young society in better shape for the future.

Interesting that in your second paragraph, you skirt what self-confidence is available for men, young and old today, but that it's "packaged differently". For women, they have talk shows, certain laws leaning towards them, makeup tutorials and dating advice shows. Anything men-related is currently jumped upon if they talk about subjects that matter outside of training.

As a (very general) rule men should have the ability to jibe at and cajole friends and/ or viewers to get better, force that mentality to 'be the best you can be' without it looking like 'toxic masculinity'. It will depend on your circle of friends, of course, but for me, mine where always nagging me to go to the gym, get in the ring, channel the energy and talk about what's fucked up with the girl you're seeing when I was young. Now, as seen in the thread, it's frowned upon for men to talk about how to understand relationships, if they want advice from others, which is patently ridiculous!

Not sure what they get out of it, but, whatever.

 

[ROCKET80]

Well, people are impressionable. Some more than others. Hasn't that always been the way? Some people can take what they need, advice-wise, and shape what they can from it. Others take it too far. Both "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" have this problem, except the male side is pushed more (more people have heard of misogyny than missandry, for example), which unbalances our society.
The sooner we accept that, the sooner we get young society in better shape for the future.

Agreed people have always been impressionable to some degree. And you're right, some can take in advice, filter it, and apply what works, while others fall hard into the extremes. That’s exactly why we need to be careful about what messages are being amplified.

Toxic masculinity gets called out more, not because men are being unfairly targeted, but because the consequences have historically had bigger ripple effects—violence, emotional suppression, unhealthy relationships. Misandry exists, but it hasn’t shaped our systems or social norms in the same deep, widespread way misogyny has

The goal shouldn’t be to pit ‘toxic masculinity’ against ‘toxic femininity,’ but to call out harmful behaviours wherever they show up—and make sure the advice to young people is genuinely helping them grow, not dragging them into power games and resentment

Interesting that in your second paragraph, you skirt what self-confidence is available for men, young and old today, but that it's "packaged differently". For women, they have talk shows, certain laws leaning towards them, makeup tutorials and dating advice shows. Anything men-related is currently jumped upon if they talk about subjects that matter outside of training.

There’s plenty of self-confidence content aimed at men it’s just presented differently because we often engage with it in different ways. A lot of it focuses on growth, purpose, and character. There are entire podcasts and platforms dedicated to things like discipline, fatherhood, emotional intelligence, and practical life skills. Some dive into topics like how to communicate better, how to dress better, eat better, and how to manage stress.

You don’t see many TV shows built around this kind of personal development for men because as a demographic, we are less likely to sit down and watch that kind of content in a traditional format. Instead, we're more likely to absorb it through podcasts, YouTube, or other online content.

Unfortunately, that vacuum of positive, engaging content often gets filled by the more sensational stuff because outrage and ego are more entertaining, even if they’re not helpful. But it doesn’t mean the good stuff isn’t there it just doesn’t shout as loud.

As a (very general) rule men should have the ability to jibe at and cajole friends and/ or viewers to get better, force that mentality to 'be the best you can be' without it looking like 'toxic masculinity'. It will depend on your circle of friends, of course, but for me, mine where always nagging me to go to the gym, get in the ring, channel the energy and talk about what's fucked up with the girl you're seeing when I was young. Now, as seen in the thread, it's frowned upon for men to talk about how to understand relationships, if they want advice from others, which is patently ridiculous!

Not sure what they get out of it, but, whatever.

I agree,friendships where you challenge each other, encourage growth, and have honest conversations (even through banter) are part of healthy male relationships. That kind of support matters, and it can be incredibly positive. But when you’re young and your friendships are still maturing, it’s easy to look elsewhere for advice, which is why it’s so important that the voices out there are constructive, not harmful.

I disagree with your view that men are frowned upon for seeking advice, opening up, or trying to better understand relationships. If anything, it’s more encouraged now than ever before. The real concern is where that advice is coming from, because when it’s rooted in resentment or outdated thinking, it can set them up with unrealistic expectations or lead them into habits that actually make relationships harder, not easier.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Geeks finding geeks is fine. As you've put before it about finding your level. But that would infer the 'Epidemic of Loneliness' is a false premise. is that your suggestion?

No, I would say it's something that affects everyone. One thing is certainly allows is more introverted types to avoid socialising and actually have to go through effort to socialise. My wife is from Vietnam and this new year we spent it in her hometown. It was basically like going back to the UK in the 90s. People constantly going around each others' houses, getting the tea out, everyone knowing their neighbours, people spending time with each other, kids playing out together on their bikes, multi-generational households, etc. There's no epidemic of loneliness there even though everyone still has social media and their own phone. There are lots of other problems, of course.

But I'm not denying an epidemic of loneliness, I'm denying that it's the fault of women, feminism, etc. That video you posted, he didn't outright blame feminism, but at several points he strongly hints that women going out to work and earn money was the reason for the problems in modern dating, and implied, again without explicitly stating it, that women getting 'equal' pay was undeserved.

As for changing the mindset, it's more about changing the things you don't like about yourself, whether that be gym or otherwise for self-confidence.

It's not about 'alpha maledom'; that's a lowest denominator misdirect.

If women have an industry for self-confidence, what do men have?

Nothing wrong with things to boost boys' self-confidence. The problem is all of the positive versions of that (youth clubs, facilities for teens, etc) have been cut so we're left with dickheads online telling them that it's all women's fault. 'Go to the gym' is terrible advice. 'Find some exercise you love and do it' is much better advice, because the reality is if you don't enjoy doing something, you're not going to keep it up and you're going to feel like even more of a loser, like the person who failed their 7th diet in a row and is now fatter than when they started. Personally, I would be bored in about 30 seconds doing weight lifting. But I love rock climbing, which is to a large extent achieving the same thing. But these messages also it's playing into the narrative that being muscular, good at sports, outgoing, etc, is the path to a happy, healthy relationship, and the only way that someone will want you, when in reality, a lot of these boys have plenty of other positive qualities, like intelligence and academic prowess (which unfortunately may not be valued in their social circle). I think perhaps here in Asia, things are a bit better because they do still attach a huge amount of social status to academic performance (which causes its own problems, but let's not get into that).

For the record, I think a lot of the same shit aimed at women is pretty toxic too. This 'all body types are beautiful' stuff is just marketing guff designed to sell to women and it quickly hits the real world when you don't get approached in the club for the 20th night in a row. The key is that these are cosmetic companies spreading this message, so even though they're trying to be positive (and no doubt some people working for them think they are), they are still reinforcing the message that a woman's entire self-worth is based on how she looks, in the same way they do with men (although at least with men, this is expanded to include wealth and confidence too).

 

[Bigga]

@ROCKET80 and @I'm With Stupid, thanks for the responses, I want to reply, but don't have the bandwidth today as my Brother is going in the ground in a few hours.

Might be a day or two.

Enjoy the day.

 

[Bigga]

In fact, before I disappear have a look at this which happened yesterday. Try not to pre-judge based off the title or still and listen to the discussion, itself.

I found that I agreed with everyone (except Morgan, the prick), at some point.

 

[Kippax Street 1880]

I think 'incel' is a self-selecting group. In theory, it's 'involuntary celibate' but in reality that definition basically includes most young men most of the time, and almost all teenage boys. I still remember throughout my uni days and early 20s going out to nightclubs with me and my friends standing around like losers trying to pluck up the courage to approach a girl and then inevitably getting rejected when we did, because we'd tried to chat up the hottest girl in the club after spending 15 minutes hovering near her. And the few times you did manage to pull, unsurprisingly, it was usually with someone who was about your level, or with someone you already knew well enough for them to like you. That a completely normal formative experience, which is why basically every teen movie is based around it.

'Incel' in the modern sense though combines this with a whole host of additional values and opinions about the reasons for this. And it basically seems to come down to blaming women, feminism, and a wider society that apparently privileges women for their woes. They also seem to view relationships as some sort of transactional business deal.

I remember reading an article written by a guy I kind of knew probably around 15-20 years ago now, long before all of this incel stuff existed, and it was titled 'Why being a nice guy isn't enough.' Basically about how 'nice' is an absolute bear minimum, but some men treat it like it's something women should be falling over themselves for. So this is definitely not a new phenomenon. Nor are these the first people to blame the opposite sex en masse for their woes (plenty of women do this too). But now, 15 years later 'nice guy' is an ironic nickname for men who act nice at first then suddenly turn when she says she's not interested.

Good post, women love genuinely nice guys, they can spot a guy pretending to be nice to get in their pants a mile off.

 

[BlueMoonday]

Pretty certain the lad who plays the appropriate adult in episode 1 is a blue, I'm sure I've seen him at games over the years.

 

[The Black Shed]

Finished it yesterday and thought it was blisteringly powerful. The final scene with Stephen Graham, blimey, I've literally said some of those words verbatim, to the people I love, about the man who made me. So yeah it resonated with me big time.