UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

Bluesince1979 said:
Why do you have to have met one to have an opinion of the rights/wrongs of the law?

Im sure some are lovely, im sure are cunty.

Im not sure of the point of your post though…
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I don't think it's about being right or wrong, per se. I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer to any of this. It's a complicated and sensitive topic which has unfortunately gone very toxic thanks to social media and the culture war stuff we've all been sucked into since around 2016. Trying to learn about the perspective of the other side is more about making an informed decision.

I think the point being made by @BlueHammer85 is that it's about seeing someone from the other side of the debate as a human being, and understanding how they might feel about it. As @Scottyboi can attest to, a post made by a transgender person in this thread has caused him to maybe rethink a few things RE: the TRA vs GC debate. Sometimes it's worth having your views challenged.

I'm good friends with transgender people in my life and I've also got family relations who fall down on the gender critical side of things. I've listened to both sides a lot over the years because it's a subject close to my heart, and I've reached an understanding based on years of reading and listening to people on all sides of this. I'll never hate someone I know who's gender critical because it's very hard to hate someone you know.

But I will admit to becoming angry at people in this thread simply because it's easier to hate usernames instead of people. By the same token, it's been tough to read your posts in this thread because we've chatted about how your wife taught me at primary school and how much of an impact she had on me in fifth year after I spent fourth year basically being bullied by the twat who was supposed to be teaching me.

You've mentioned a couple of times in this thread that your daughter goes to school with two kids who have animal alter egos. Even as someone who casually knows a couple of adults who are furries, I doubt that the kids in your daughter's school have a full understanding of what they're dealing with, but... kids are kids. If you can't experiment and explore your identity as a teenager then when can you? Not everyone needs to experiment, but some do.

But anyway, my point is - have you ever chatted to these kids' parents in the playground to try and work out why their kids feel the way they do? Has your daughter ever spoken to them in school and tried to learn about how those kids feel? If you don't want your daughter asking those questions - have you ever tried to see things from the point of view of those kids who think they're cats sometimes? It might be a little weird, sure, but it'll be less weird once you learn something about it.

I think this is what I find so depressing on both sides of the TRA vs GC debate, and throughout society right now - it's definitely gotten worse since Twitter and Facebook and all that. There's a real lack of empathy and curiosity among everyday people. It feels like we're becoming less and less capable of meeting people in the middle on things, while trying to learn about different cultures and identities and perspectives and ideologies is becoming harder and harder.

To put it in even simpler terms, what's happened to the phrase "live and let live"? I was always brought up with the philosophy that if someone's acting in a way I think is strange but not hurting anyone then I just let them get on with it. More and more these days I'm seeing this desire among people to correct things that stand out for any particular reason instead of just letting sleeping dogs lie, or dismiss things that seem foreign or strange. I just feel sad reading threads like this because I think the lack of appetite for cooperation will ultimately bring us all down.
 
bluethrunthru said:
i don't think a woman's right should be ignored but I can see that the ruling changes little or nothing in the long term.

Take the toilets issue. I agree women should be the one's in ladies loo's. However, as I said in the post you responded to, what about the many interactions that occur when no-one even knows? If women should use ladies loo's then women transitioning to men should be directed to the ladies loo as a biological female. I can imagine that someone trans who is female but is a visually compelling male rocking up in the ladies is hardly going to make women feel any safer. It will appear there is a man in the queue for the ladies.

If someone is a predatory man out to molest or harm women surely they could rock up in that same queue and claim access is theirs because they are a woman. Unless someone is enforcing it with say a visual or physical check how do you stop that? As I say I can't see anything other than a pyrrhic victory.
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Surely it's up to the minority to adapt rather than expect the majority to adapt? i.e it's up to the minority to try and fit in as best they can (within reason). If you force the majority to change behaviour to suit a minority then that will lead to mass resentment. As with this case. Just to be clear here, mass resentment is not good in any society. The choice with this one is pissed off women or pissed off trans people. It is a no brainer.
 
Palerider said:
Surely it's up to the minority to adapt rather than expect the majority to adapt? i.e it's up to the minority to try and fit in as best they can (within reason). If you force the majority to change behaviour to suit a minority then that will lead to mass resentment. As with this case. Just to be clear here, mass resentment is not good in any society. The choice with this one is pissed off women or pissed off trans people. It is a no brainer.
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marginalisation of a group is a victory for no-one
 
Palerider said:
Surely it's up to the minority to adapt rather than expect the majority to adapt? i.e it's up to the minority to try and fit in as best they can (within reason). If you force the majority to change behaviour to suit a minority then that will lead to mass resentment. As with this case. Just to be clear here, mass resentment is not good in any society. The choice with this one is pissed off women or pissed off trans people. It is a no brainer.
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But the problem with what you're saying is that it assumes transgender people have only existed since they became a hot button issue circa 10 years ago, and that things are going to change for the rest of us because of them. Transgender people have been using their desired public bathrooms and desired changing rooms for as long as public bathrooms and changing rooms have existed. Nobody has ever had to change their behaviour to suit anyone else because nothing has ever been different. We've all just carried on as normal, keeping ourselves to ourselves in toilets and changing rooms, because why would any normal person do anything else?
 
youngbob said:
But the problem with what you're saying is that it assumes transgender people have only existed since they became a hot button issue circa 10 years ago, and that things are going to change for the rest of us because of them. Transgender people have been using their desired public bathrooms and desired changing rooms for as long as public bathrooms and changing rooms have existed. Nobody has ever had to change their behaviour to suit anyone else because nothing has ever been different. We've all just carried on as normal, keeping ourselves to ourselves in toilets and changing rooms, because why would any normal person do anything else?
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I didn't bring the case. You didn't bring the case. Women did. The law backed them up and said they were right and justified.
 
Palerider said:
I didn't bring the case. You didn't bring the case. Women did. The law backed them up and said they were right and justified.
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Thank you for ignoring literally everything I said in my post and responding to something I was not specifically discussing.
 
Palerider said:
You cannot please everyone. Just get the best people.
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It’s not about pleasing everyone, it’s about having diversity of thought contributing. That is having the best people.

Not having it and not being challenged is exactly how governments end up implementing unlawful practices.
 
youngbob said:
But the problem with what you're saying is that it assumes transgender people have only existed since they became a hot button issue circa 10 years ago, and that things are going to change for the rest of us because of them. Transgender people have been using their desired public bathrooms and desired changing rooms for as long as public bathrooms and changing rooms have existed. Nobody has ever had to change their behaviour to suit anyone else because nothing has ever been different. We've all just carried on as normal, keeping ourselves to ourselves in toilets and changing rooms, because why would any normal person do anything else?
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I'll try again. YOU may have been happy with trans people in your changing room BUT the WOMEN who brought the case were not. So what you have wrote is clearly not the truth for anyone but you is it? The court agreed with the women and their feelings and not your feelings.
 
meltonblue said:
It’s not about pleasing everyone, it’s about having diversity of thought contributing. That is having the best people.

Not having it and not being challenged is exactly how governments end up implementing unlawful practices.
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Trumps America in two lines
 
Palerider said:
I'll try again. YOU may have been happy with trans people in your changing room BUT the WOMEN who brought the case were not. So what you have wrote is clearly not the truth for anyone but you is it? The court agreed with the women and their feelings and not your feelings.
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I think it's the truth for a lot more people than just myself. Like I said, trans people live among us - in toilets, changing rooms, and everywhere else - without us even knowing. I know that thought scares some people, but I would hope that it comforts the majority, just in the sense that we can't know every stranger's sex at birth and yet we get through life with that not really mattering.

Anyway, I don't think you need to be so antagonistic about this. The kind of tone you're using in your posts is part of the reason why this debate has fallen to such low depths. My first post in this thread was just asking questions to the people on the "winning" side this week and all I've done since is try to engage and put my point of view across. I know it's easy to get angry over the internet but please try to compose yourself.
 
youngbob said:
I think it's the truth for a lot more people than just myself. Like I said, trans people live among us - in toilets, changing rooms, and everywhere else - without us even knowing. I know that thought scares some people, but I would hope that it comforts the majority, just in the sense that we can't know every stranger's sex at birth and yet we get through life with that not really mattering.

Anyway, I don't think you need to be so antagonistic about this. The kind of tone you're using in your posts is part of the reason why this debate has fallen to such low depths. My first post in this thread was just asking questions to the people on the "winning" side this week and all I've done since is try to engage and put my point of view across. I know it's easy to get angry over the internet but please try to compose yourself.
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I apologise for any over the top tone. The simple truth though is that you cannot please both sides and maybe the big mistake was trying to give trans people womens rights in the first place rather than, as you say, just letting them get on with everyday life as incognito as possible as previously.
 
I think I've said all I can say in this thread. I've already repeated myself a lot. The rest of it's kind of got me down, to be honest, so I'll be trying to ignore it from now on.
 
The court's could not have ruled other than it did for many reasons. The most obvious being it was how the law was written.


But lets assume for a second that the court had ruled in the opposite direction and concluded 'women' in the law, was meant to include 'trans women.' What would the downstream implications of such a ruling be?

Well, for one it would mean biological men who have undergone surgery would be considered women for sure. That's the easy one. Same for men who can easily or at least passably pass as a woman in outward appearance.

How about biological men who haven't had surgery and don't easily pass as a woman? I e. those with a penis, and have no intentions to damage it. Would they qualify too? And if they do, how about the other newer genders? Like people who don't consider themselves either gender or people who consider themselves both genders?.Would the former be barred from both the men's and women's bathrooms? And would the latter be allowed to choose whichever bathroom suits them in the moment. Presumably, the one with a shorter line? Or would the way they dress that day be the predominant decider?


How do we differentiate between someone who is trans and someone who is simply a creep pretending to be trans so they could gain access to spaces in which women are vulnerable? I.e changing spaces. And is it okay if we can't differentiate and the biological women and their trans women brethren should just deal with that new risk. After all only a small minority of creeps would use the excuse of being trans to access spaces they'd normally would have been barred from. As far as i know, self identification is still the prevailing rule in the community.

What other benefits might also apply under such a ruling? Would a self identified trans person be allowed to apply for positions reserved for women? And how recent must their self identification be to make them eligible? A day? A long standing history of trans identity? Who gets to judge? The courts? Other trans people? What's would the standard be? Or would there be none at all? A theoretical free for all. Scouts honor i suppose.

Do ALL non-binary people even want to share bathrooms with binary people? Including the self identifying members of one of the binary sexes? Even the binary people who are trans. How long before demands for 'non- binary ' specific for non gender specific identifying trans people become a request?

How seriously or unseriously should we take the cries of the 'i don't belong to either gender' crew.

Lets take this a step further, how about safe houses for abused spouses and their children. Should these houses also be di-gendered? And not, why not?

How about jails? Would a biological male assaulter of women have the right to identify as trans? And if not, why not? What are the limits? The guardrails? The boundaries of this new reality?

At some point won't we have to question the purpose of gendered sports all together? Perhaps we can go the boxing route and just let the best athlete at specific weight and sizes compete regardless of this armophous category called sex/gender.

Sure, some of the potential thoughts and conclusions here are ridiculous. But these are just a dash of the issues that would still need resolving, even if every right wing nutjob, and every feminist bigot acquiesced to the claims of the other side.
 
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meltonblue said:
Having diversity of thought to consider when writing a law is having the best people though, that’s the whole point!
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The best people already have that diversity of thought. They don't work in a vacuum. They think deeply about issues with a large group of intelligent associates helping them. They bring to bare on issues they deliberate on, a lifetime of experience grounded in a history of showcasing excellence in their judgement and pronouncements while leaning on the judgment and expertise of others who have themselves shown a history of excellent judgement and subject matter expertise.

For someone to reduce those experiences to the ages and sexes of the 'old men' is unserious at best.
 
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