VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

[TheBeautifulGame]

So you are saying there is a lower bar for a goalkeeper committing a foul outside the area? Which is weird, because there seems to be a higher bar for an attacker committing a foul inside the penalty area than anywhere else on the pitch, especially holding offences.

No! I'm not saying that. I'm saying that situations inside and outside the box should be judged and carded the same, accordingly. If a handball that is considered non-deliberate inside the box is only a yellow, then it should also be outside the box.

As it stands, the language would suggest that any foul that occurs outside the box would be an automatic red card, but inside the box it wouldn't be is bollocks. But you wanna know why it is like that? Because of VAR! Because due to the way VAR was designed to allow itself to review situations inside the box that aren't reviewable outside, they attempt to tie things up by making anything outside an automatic red card. It's patently illogical!

And the reasoning for it is also flawed, to try to seemingly "balance out" the severity of the totality of infractions of any given situation in what they call "double jeopardy" an erroneous definition of what that even means. But it's worded in the context of how VAR operates.

An infraction inside or outside the box (particularly in terms of how it's carded, as carding is an individual punishment) should carry the exact same guidelines to it, as there is an additional severity of punishment for fouls occurring inside the box due to the penalty kick alone. There is no need to punish an identical foul outside the box differently or harsher than inside because it's understood that the punishment of an infraction inside the box is inherently harsher due to the penalty kick. That's how it was designed to work, that's how it worked for generations until this VAR-induced nonsense.

It's also a misnomer to suggest that there's a lower bar for a goalkeeper foul outside the area, considering that a handball by a goalkeeper is only a foul outside and not inside.

Basically, the whole thing is a shitshow, and since Webb took over as head of the PGMOL it seems to have gone backwards and more of a closed shop with fans suffering as a result.

And that needs to change, at minimum. How it should change is beyond me, as the only remedy I see is a complete scrapping of such a dysfunctional, inconsistent, annoying and problematic system.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Ah yeh, just the odd moans and groans but all was fine.

Not necessarily fine, but certainly far better than this madness.

 

[richardtheref]

Can someone remind me what date the beautiful game said he was making his last comment on the topic? I know I'm stupid responding to it and feel partly to blame.

Also not sure why he thinks that because Durham FA have included it in a training course why the FA would release the audio. In any case the PL only ever allow the release of audio when it's in their favour.

He truly is a bizarre individual. Everyone and their dog has explained to him the laws but he continues his 1 man crusade. I feel he will still be harping on after next years final.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

No! I'm not saying that. I'm saying that situations inside and outside the box should be carded the same, accordingly. If a handball that is considered non-deliberate inside the box is only a yellow, then it should also be outside the box.

As it stands, the language would suggest that any foul that occurs outside the box would be an automatic red card, but inside the box it wouldn't be is bollocks. But you wanna know why it is like that? Because of VAR! Because due to the way VAR was designed to allow itself to review situations inside the box that aren't reviewable outside, they attempt to tie things up by making anything outside an automatic red card. It's patently illogical!

And the reasoning for it is also flawed, to try to seemingly "balance out" the severity of the totality of infractions of any given situation in what they call "double jeopardy" an erroneous definition of what that even means. But it's worded in the context of how VAR operates.

An infraction inside or outside the box (particularly in terms of how it's carded, as carding is an individual punishment) should carry the exact same guidelines to it, as there is an additional severity of punishment for fouls occurring inside the box. There is no need to punish an identical foul outside the box differently or harsher than inside because it's understood that the punishment of an infraction inside the box is inherently harsher due to the penalty kick.

It's also a misnomer to suggest that there's a lower bar for a goalkeeper foul outside the area, considering that a handball by a goalkeeper is only a foul outside and not inside.


And that needs to change, at minimum. How it should change is beyond me, as the only remedy I see is a complete scrapping of such a dysfunctional, inconsistent, annoying and problematic system.

Again, you are muddying the waters with handball and DGSO. It should have been a straight red card for a conscious action leading to a foul that in my opinion and in the opinion of a majority of current and former match officials, a denial of a goal scoring opportunity, as opposed to the Martinez incident which should not have been a red card. A handball or other foul in isolation is absolutely irrelevant.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Not necessarily fine, but certainly far better than this madness.

We live in a social media world where people can rage about one incident and you can write a book on it over and over - every controversial decision is heightened to ridiculous degrees nowadays - if you want to really see madness, completely get rid of VAR now and let’s see how happy everyone is knowing for so many major decisions a ref could of had a second look.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

We live in a social media world where people can rage about one incident and you can write a book on it over and over - every controversial decision is heightened to ridiculous degrees nowadays - if you want to really see madness, completely get rid of VAR now and let’s see how happy everyone is knowing for so many major decisions a ref could of had a second look.

It would be a joy to see matches flow again and whilst watching to know that it can't be stopped for minutes on end to obsess over 50/50 decisions any more only to endlessly infuriate fans with debates about the way that the laws have been changed due to VAR in their failed attempt at trying to make things factual that objectively aren't and trying to build arbitrary and problematic guidelines around the reviewing process.

It would be a joy to see referee be allowed to do his job all by himself once again without being second guessed every time he makes a decision. If he missed a handball like in the Henderson situation a lino may have caught it and he could bring it to the referee's attention and correct it promptly, without all this was it a red was it an "obvious" DOGSO nonsense. If a lino did catch it he would be prevented from even approaching the referee under this failed system just like he isn't allowed to put his flag up when he sees an offsides anymore. Just correct the simple error, give City the free kick they deserved and move on. If the ref considered that a yellow or a red, then allow the ref to make the decision, don't force him to go through endless hoops in order to make the correction.

You're on an island here as the lone voice who likes VAR and thinks it's a good thing. While I can understand your position in theory, in practice it's a nightmare and has shown itself to be. An immediate sacking of VAR would be embraced fully by the vast majority of the football world.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I don’t blame TBG for this continued idiocy, I blame those who keep replying with the exact same response, over and over and over and over … again!

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

I don’t blame TBG for this continued idiocy, I blame those who keep replying with the exact same response, over and over and over and over … again!

I'm trying to help them along is all. And while much consternation has been directed at me for trying to put all this into its proper context, in the end this should be directed at the source of the problem - VAR and the dysfunctional way it operates. If any of these posters would simply say "you make a fair point" or "i can appreciate where you're coming from" something to that effect then we can move on. But instead I'm constantly being told how wrong I am for simply trying to apply common sense and explanations for the persistent problems that relate to VAR and its implementation.

 

[BlueHammer85]

It would be a joy to see matches flow again and whilst watching to know that it can't be stopped for minutes on end to obsess over 50/50 decisions any more only to endlessly infuriate fans with debates about the way that the laws have been changed due to VAR in their failed attempt at trying to make things factual that objectively aren't and trying to build arbitrary and problematic guidelines around the reviewing process.
It would be a joy to see referee be allowed to do his job all by himself once again without being second guessed every time he makes a decision. If he missed a handball like in the Henderson situation a lino may have caught it and he could bring it to the referee's attention and correct it promptly, without all this was it a red was it an "obvious" DOGSO nonsense. If a lino did catch it he would be prevented from even approaching the referee under this failed system just like he isn't allowed to put his flag up when he sees an offsides anymore. Just correct the simple error, give City the free kick they deserved and move on. If the ref considered that a yellow or a red, then allow the ref to make the decision, don't force him to go through endless hoops in order to make the correction.

You're on an island here as the lone voice who likes VAR and thinks it's a good thing. While I can understand your position in theory, in practice it's a nightmare and has shown itself to be. An immediate sacking of VAR would be embraced fully by the vast majority of the football world.

Well we briefly had that joy a few months ago when no VAR was used over the weekend - how did that go and how happy was everyone ? …. And this was just one weekend. I’m also sure Leyton Orient player should have had a red card v Man City the same day.

'Cheated' - Leicester City fans left fuming over blatant refereeing error in Man Utd FA Cup defeat

Unforgivable!

www.leicestercity.news

'Robbed' - Fans fume at lack of VAR again after latest controversial FA Cup call

FANS have been left raging AGAIN over the lack of VAR in the fourth round of the FA Cup. Several matches this weekend have been impacted by controversial refereeing decisions, with officials in Sto…

www.thesun.co.uk

Enzo Maresca slams 'clear' handball before Brighton goal as Chelsea knocked out of FA Cup | Goal.com UK

Chelsea boss Enzo Maresca slammed the referees for missing a 'clear' handball in the Blues' 2-1 loss to Brighton in the fourth round of the FA Cup.

www.goal.com

Exclusive: Gillett slammed as Mitoma's Brighton winner v Chelsea 'easy' to disallow

Kaoru Mitoma's match winning goal for Brighton against Chelsea shouldn't have stood as Jarred Gillett relied on VAR when it was not in place.

www.footballinsider247.com

Newcastle's win shrouded in controversy with no goal-line technology on offer

One of the closest goals in FA Cup history has gone in favour of Newcastle. The Premier League side beat League One outfit Birmingham 3-2 in the fourth-round of the FA Cup and the two teams staged …

talksport.com

 

[RiversideBlue]

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

I think the problem our posters are facing here is quite clear. We’re just not getting deep enough into the fundamentals of what a “deliberate handball” truly means. Going back to basics here, one would have to prove in the first instance that Henderson possesses free will. A notion long discredited by everyone from Spinoza to Schopenhauer.

Even if the arm in question moved “toward the ball,” what of it? Sartre would remind us that existence precedes essence — perhaps the arm was simply enacting its own absurd project, rebelling against the tyranny of the torso. Camus would likely shrug and say the true absurdity lies in expecting coherence from a game where 22 men chase a sphere for 90 minutes hoping not to be accused of intentionality.

In truth, no handball can ever be deliberate because the very concept of “deliberate” collapses under scrutiny — a mere illusion of autonomy conjured by a set of laws that, like Plato’s puppeteer, mistakes shadows on a screen for reality.

Therefore, the only just conclusion is that all handballs are accidental, all cards are arbitrary, and all appeals to object-oriented actions are the desperate cries of men who believe the self exists.

Hope that clears things up and we can finally all move on with our lives.

 

[Blue Mist]

I still think that decision was based on 'spoiling the game as a contest'. Of course, the only way we'll know this is if they release the audio of the discussions between the officials and those in the VAR room, and I think we all know they aren't going to do that.

I agree. Kevin Moran was the very first player to be sent off in a cup final.
It was 1985 !! It took 20 years before another player was red carded.
The first final was in 1872 so 113 years passed before anybody did a bad tackle........ yeh right
They have never wanted to send anyone off so that the game wasn't ruined as a spectacle.
I call it cheating.

 

[Stephen230]

I agree. Kevin Moran was the very first player to be sent off in a cup final.
It was 1985 !! It took 20 years before another player was red carded.
The first final was in 1872 so 113 years passed before anybody did a bad tackle........ yeh right
They have never wanted to send anyone off so that the game wasn't ruined as a spectacle.
I call it cheating.

Not really worth comparing anything prior to about the 1990s with modern football as far as discipline goes.

Sendings off used to be as rare as rocking horse shit and were reserved for attempted murder and above.

Sendings off now weren’t even a foul in the 70s & 80s most of the time.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I agree. Kevin Moran was the very first player to be sent off in a cup final.
It was 1985 !! It took 20 years before another player was red carded.
The first final was in 1872 so 113 years passed before anybody did a bad tackle........ yeh right
They have never wanted to send anyone off so that the game wasn't ruined as a spectacle.
I call it cheating.

Consciously letting the occasion (or the team involved) dictate the application of the laws of the game that were applied proportionally and fairly in the earlier rounds of the competition is 100% unfair and totally against the spirit of the game.

 

[Paladin]

I'm trying to help them along is all. And while much consternation has been directed at me for trying to put all this into its proper context, in the end this should be directed at the source of the problem - VAR and the dysfunctional way it operates. If any of these posters would simply say "you make a fair point" or "i can appreciate where you're coming from" something to that effect then we can move on. But instead I'm constantly being told how wrong I am for simply trying to apply common sense and explanations for the persistent problems that relate to VAR and its implementation.

You make a fair point.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I don’t blame TBG for this continued idiocy, I blame those who keep replying with the exact same response, over and over and over and over … again!

Guilty.

 

[Blue Mist]

Not really worth comparing anything prior to about the 1990s with modern football as far as discipline goes.

Sendings off used to be as rare as rocking horse shit and were reserved for attempted murder and above.

Sendings off now weren’t even a foul in the 70s & 80s most of the time.

I was being flippant when I mentioned 1872.
I think the rest of the facts speak for themselves. They do not want to spoil a show piece event by sending a player off. I will include the Milner non sending off when he decked Bernardo with 15 minutes to go.
Sky wanted 11 v 11, it was one all with both teams going for it. Perfect tele. Send Milner off a Liverpool would have simply defended looking for the draw.
When you do not follow the rules for whatever reason, you are cheating.
The failure of the referee and Var to act in the cup final was so it was kept competitive.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Look at all the fallout. I'm glad, they've brought this shit upon themselves.

Pre VAR...
Refs made a mistake and it was over human error, everyone moans, the ref gets some stick, we carry on.

VAR makes a mistake and apologies have to be issued. Pgmol have to explain the error. Rules have to be rewritten (which causes even more issues further down the line). Clubs threaten action. Fans don't understand why.

Pgmol can and will stew in the shite they created.

It's also interesting that everyone is up in arms about Villa 'missing out on CL' but nobody seems to give a monkey's that Forest are in the Conference League rather than the Europa League and Brighton aren't in Europe at all, both as a direct result of Palace winning the FA Cup. The cognitive dissonance is startling because they desperately wanted Palace to win the Cup, which I understand fully, by the way.
Obviously if Henderson is red carded, if Martinez is not red carded or if the Villa goal is not disallowed the final results might well have ended up the same, but there's a good chance they wouldn't have.

 

[give it to gordon]

A FOOT?

Are you blind?

View attachment 157873

But it's clear not head high lol

 

[johnevans]

I think the problem our posters are facing here is quite clear. We’re just not getting deep enough into the fundamentals of what a “deliberate handball” truly means. Going back to basics here, one would have to prove in the first instance that Henderson possesses free will. A notion long discredited by everyone from Spinoza to Schopenhauer.

Even if the arm in question moved “toward the ball,” what of it? Sartre would remind us that existence precedes essence — perhaps the arm was simply enacting its own absurd project, rebelling against the tyranny of the torso. Camus would likely shrug and say the true absurdity lies in expecting coherence from a game where 22 men chase a sphere for 90 minutes hoping not to be accused of intentionality.

In truth, no handball can ever be deliberate because the very concept of “deliberate” collapses under scrutiny — a mere illusion of autonomy conjured by a set of laws that, like Plato’s puppeteer, mistakes shadows on a screen for reality.

Therefore, the only just conclusion is that all handballs are accidental, all cards are arbitrary, and all appeals to object-oriented actions are the desperate cries of men who believe the self exists.

Hope that clears things up and we can finally all move on with our lives.

All valid points, dear 'SBF'.. and if I might add to your exemplary review of the philosophies behind this debate, as John Stuart Mill said, 'To be is to do'; while Jean-Paul Sartre suggested 'To do is to be'; and of course, Frank Sinatra offered 'Do be, do be, do..' I think that says it all..