Grooming gang scandal

Vic said:
I hope you feel better for that.

If you mean TAG it wasn't a charity. Maybe Ali felt it had done its job. He's been on Newsnight since.

And maybe you didn't read the bit about those who thought having a sermon against child abuse was a mistake, as it might imply that people in mosques didn't already know it was wrong (and would play into the hands of far-right groups). But the vast majority of the UK Pakistani population have nothing to do with the rape gangs and are getting about living their lives peaceably with their families (so you said) so I'm not sure what your point is.

It seemed to be that where you grew up, someone suspected of being a nonce would have their windows put through, but that didn't happen in the Muslim community because (e.g.) they are "tight communities with strong patriarchal clans". You cited an article from 2014 (by a Muslim) saying Muslims should speak out, and when I cited an article from the year before to show it had already happened, you call it pedantry.
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That's desperate Vic
 
Roachy said:
I watched an interview the other day with the father of one of the abusers. He was a relatively well spoken chap and had made the choice to speak about it. There was no denial from him throughout that his dog of a son, and others, had committed some wrongdoing. However, the majority of the blame according to him, lay at the door of social workers and unbelievably the abused kids. The insinuation was that due to the way the girls were dressed and that they were openly hanging around, they were fair game. When the ages of the girls were highlighted, some 12 or 13 years old, he shrugged his shoulders.
So many knew but said and done nothing. Furthermore, those in positions of authority who suspected, knew and chose to turn a blind eye or suppressed investigations need naming and shaming. Police, social services, councils, local and national government are all culpable.
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I saw a news article on TV a while ago about a Pakistani grooming gang trial ( can't remember which one now). The film crew were outside the court and unbelievably family members of the perpetrators , many of them female were there shouting abuse at a victim who had bravely agreed to go to court to give evidence.Blaming the victim for tempting them etc , she would have been a child at the time. It was sickening.
What causes this ?

In my opinion, by Western standards Islam is fundamentally misogynistic but that is compounded by some radical Imam's and preachers. Here is a note of an interview with Taj Hargey that I have posted before on the Labour thread.
Hargey has his own agenda in that he is trying to preach a progressive secular version of Islam that would sit more easily with Western values ( he isn't winning) , this interview was from 2013 in regard to the Oxford grooming gang, but he says nothing has changed.
He says clearly this is attitude is encouraged by some religious leaders....
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Hertzblue said:
I saw a news article on TV a while ago about a Pakistani grooming gang trial ( can't remember which one now). The film crew were outside the court and unbelievably family members of the perpetrators , many of them female were there shouting abuse at a victim who had bravely agreed to go to court to give evidence.Blaming the victim for tempting them etc , she would have been a child at the time. It was sickening.
What causes this ?

In my opinion, by Western standards Islam is fundamentally misogynistic but that is compounded by some radical Imam's and preachers. Here is a note of an interview with Taj Hargey that I have posted before on the Labour thread.
Hargey has his own agenda in that he is trying to preach a progressive secular version of Islam that would sit more easily with Western values ( he isn't winning) , this interview was from 2013 in regard to the Oxford grooming gang, but he says nothing has changed.
He says clearly this is attitude is encouraged by some religious leaders....
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Religion again. A lot to answer for.
Incidently, AbuDhabi gov spends a lot of time and money doing what Taj Hargey does in promoting a more modern version of Islam. Not sure if they get anywhere. Islam needs a reformation.
 
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We know that religion has a lot to answer for and that's why we need to focus on the crime.

Something just came up on my Facebook feed about 600 bodies of babies found in a septic tank of a school run by nuns in Northern Ireland. I have no doubt that few people spoke out and those that did were soon closed down by their families or religious leaders. The person who discovered it said that the local community mocked her and laughed at her.

The Christian Brothers made my uncle hold his brother down while they beat him, and oh, the children born to young women and the local man-of-the-cloth.

I hear about honour killings within the Islamic community and I am horrified, just as the thought of vulnerable children being 'befriended' and given gifts as a way to convince them that sleeping with the kind man is okay, just before he passes the child to cousins and uncles, and kebab shop owners and taxi drivers, is utterly disgusting. Is the faith to blame? Not in my view. People know right from wrong. They know that scripture doesn't allow them to kill children, nor to rape them. If you knew about it and it was proven, then you should also face the full power of the law.

Paedophiles, traffickers, and abusers of women are the lowest of the low. From whatever community they are from, they are subject to the law of the land. Build the evidence, charge, try, convict, sentence, regardless of faith. In the cases in Rotherham and Rochdale it is clear that five step process was not followed properly and that is not the fault of faith, it is the fault of the legal profession and their support teams.
 
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KS55 said:
Religion again. A lot to answer for.
Incidently, AbuDhabi gov spends a lot of time and money doing what Taj Hargey does in promoting a more modern version of Islam. Not sure if they get anywhere. Islam needs a reformation.
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Islam was founded 600 years after Christianity .... if you turn the clocks back 5 / 600 years what was Christianity doing ? Burning witches , Inquisition , Crusades and Religious wars ....... not much difference in the time line.
 
The problem with religion is that it gets abused.

The fundamental message of all religions is roughly the same and very positive. It boils down to 'don't be a ****'.

Unfortunately, religion is abused as a means of social control.
It gives authority to ministers, and power can go to people's heads, and often does.
It's always remarkably easy to persuade yourself that you are doing God's will or, at least, that you are not going against Him.

Never mind, Islam. Look at Christians, with whom we are more familiar.
The attitude of many 'Christians' is directly repugnant to Christ's teaching. You only have to look at some of the 'Christians' in the USA, bristling with guns, racist, and persuaded by prosperity theology. There are plenty of examples of hypocritical 'Christians' in the UK too. Read stuff like the Sermon on the Mount and then read the Daily Mail online comments on any social issue. You can bet that 99% of the far right claim to be 'Christian' even if they have never been in a church for anything but a wedding or a funeral in 50 years. Bluntly, you can't be a Christian and a racist. You have to choose. The Boss himself likely had brown skin and his Mother was not an Anglo-Saxon princess but a Jewess.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Islam was founded 600 years after Christianity .... if you turn the clocks back 5 / 600 years what was Christianity doing ? Burning witches , Inquisition , Crusades and Religious wars ....... not much difference in the time line.
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I see you are still making excuses.
You were previously very vocal that no further enquiry was needed .
Is that still your opinion?
 
Spare a thought this weekend for some of those poor Labour MPs back in their constituencies , meeting their constituents. It's going to be tough !

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Hertzblue said:
I saw a news article on TV a while ago about a Pakistani grooming gang trial ( can't remember which one now). The film crew were outside the court and unbelievably family members of the perpetrators , many of them female were there shouting abuse at a victim who had bravely agreed to go to court to give evidence.Blaming the victim for tempting them etc , she would have been a child at the time. It was sickening.
What causes this ?

In my opinion, by Western standards Islam is fundamentally misogynistic but that is compounded by some radical Imam's and preachers. Here is a note of an interview with Taj Hargey that I have posted before on the Labour thread.
Hargey has his own agenda in that he is trying to preach a progressive secular version of Islam that would sit more easily with Western values ( he isn't winning) , this interview was from 2013 in regard to the Oxford grooming gang, but he says nothing has changed.
He says clearly this is attitude is encouraged by some religious leaders....
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Interesting and disturbing article. How is this outlook addressed? I know nothing of Islam, and don't want to either btw. These horrendous crimes seem more cultural than anything else, but on the face of it are closely linked to the religion. The requirements of following a religion can never transcend or override the prevailing laws of the land, and I'm not saying this is the case here, but the race and religion of those involved is a major factor. My sorrow is for the victims and my immeasurable disgust for the perpetrators. My anger is for those that knew or suspected but put other motivations first.
 
mind your car Mr? said:
Not cynical, just realistic
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But its not realistic, and being cynical was me being incredible generous and polite.

Claiming that the coast guard want to show off and social workers want to sweep the raping of children under the carpet is actually incredibly offensive. It leads me to believe you have basically no knowledge at all of these industries and the challenges that they face. A Facebook educated poster, essentially.

My problem with this issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that very few people actually give a fuck about it. Every time it comes up, you've got one side saying DEPORT BROWN PEOPLE and another side saying DENY REALITY OR YOU'RE A RACIST. Ok fine, thats certainly one battlefront of the culture war that people can take on.

Me, I dont really give a fuck if the grooming gangs are full of Pakistani men or white men or space men. The ethnicity holds absolutely zero importance to me. What I want to do is solve the problem and stop kids getting raped and abused. By anyone, with any "cultural background". I think we should try to actually solve the problem of child abuse rather than pointlessly and endlessly discuss the racial politics of it.

And when I say I have a sneaking suspicion others aren't really that bothered about it, the fact that all they want to do is talk about ethnicity or political parties or whatever instead of focusing on actually helping the kids makes me thing this is just climate change or trans rights or Chagos Island or some other wedge issue for partisans to kick around to say how the other side is actually really evil. There's no focus on the actual kids, and the solution.
 
Damocles said:
But its not realistic, and being cynical was me being incredible generous and polite.

Claiming that the coast guard want to show off and social workers want to sweep the raping of children under the carpet is actually incredibly offensive. It leads me to believe you have basically no knowledge at all of these industries and the challenges that they face. A Facebook educated poster, essentially.

My problem with this issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that very few people actually give a fuck about it. Every time it comes up, you've got one side saying DEPORT BROWN PEOPLE and another side saying DENY REALITY OR YOU'RE A RACIST. Ok fine, thats certainly one battlefront of the culture war that people can take on.

Me, I dont really give a fuck if the grooming gangs are full of Pakistani men or white men or space men. The ethnicity holds absolutely zero importance to me. What I want to do is solve the problem and stop kids getting raped and abused. By anyone, with any "cultural background". I think we should try to actually solve the problem of child abuse rather than pointlessly and endlessly discuss the racial politics of it.

And when I say I have a sneaking suspicion others aren't really that bothered about it, the fact that all they want to do is talk about ethnicity or political parties or whatever instead of focusing on actually helping the kids makes me thing this is just climate change or trans rights or Chagos Island or some other wedge issue for partisans to kick around to say how the other side is actually really evil. There's no focus on the actual kids, and the solution.
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Thank you for being incredibly generous and polite, you then let yourself down by insulting me by saying I'm essentially a Facebook educated poster, I find that incredibly hurtful, you know nothing about me, by the way I'm not on Facebook either.
You just appear to be a part of the bluemoon Mafia
 
Damocles said:
But its not realistic, and being cynical was me being incredible generous and polite.

Claiming that the coast guard want to show off and social workers want to sweep the raping of children under the carpet is actually incredibly offensive. It leads me to believe you have basically no knowledge at all of these industries and the challenges that they face. A Facebook educated poster, essentially.

My problem with this issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that very few people actually give a fuck about it. Every time it comes up, you've got one side saying DEPORT BROWN PEOPLE and another side saying DENY REALITY OR YOU'RE A RACIST. Ok fine, thats certainly one battlefront of the culture war that people can take on.

Me, I dont really give a fuck if the grooming gangs are full of Pakistani men or white men or space men. The ethnicity holds absolutely zero importance to me. What I want to do is solve the problem and stop kids getting raped and abused. By anyone, with any "cultural background". I think we should try to actually solve the problem of child abuse rather than pointlessly and endlessly discuss the racial politics of it.

And when I say I have a sneaking suspicion others aren't really that bothered about it, the fact that all they want to do is talk about ethnicity or political parties or whatever instead of focusing on actually helping the kids makes me thing this is just climate change or trans rights or Chagos Island or some other wedge issue for partisans to kick around to say how the other side is actually really evil. There's no focus on the actual kids, and the solution.
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That quite a long post, when in reality you could have just said if nobody discusses that there is a problem then it can be ignored.
 
Damocles said:
But its not realistic, and being cynical was me being incredible generous and polite.

Claiming that the coast guard want to show off and social workers want to sweep the raping of children under the carpet is actually incredibly offensive. It leads me to believe you have basically no knowledge at all of these industries and the challenges that they face. A Facebook educated poster, essentially.

My problem with this issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that very few people actually give a fuck about it. Every time it comes up, you've got one side saying DEPORT BROWN PEOPLE and another side saying DENY REALITY OR YOU'RE A RACIST. Ok fine, thats certainly one battlefront of the culture war that people can take on.

Me, I dont really give a fuck if the grooming gangs are full of Pakistani men or white men or space men. The ethnicity holds absolutely zero importance to me. What I want to do is solve the problem and stop kids getting raped and abused. By anyone, with any "cultural background". I think we should try to actually solve the problem of child abuse rather than pointlessly and endlessly discuss the racial politics of it.

And when I say I have a sneaking suspicion others aren't really that bothered about it, the fact that all they want to do is talk about ethnicity or political parties or whatever instead of focusing on actually helping the kids makes me thing this is just climate change or trans rights or Chagos Island or some other wedge issue for partisans to kick around to say how the other side is actually really evil. There's no focus on the actual kids, and the solution.
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You're right, there are people on both sides who either want to use this issue for political motives or to prevent people using this issue for political motives, but it's a bell curve distribution imo.

The vast majority are shocked and appalled that these grooming gangs happened, that these vulnerable kids were abused, that those tasked with the job of protecting them failed to do so, and that the British state covered it up.

Those people, the vast majority, would feel the same way regardless of the racial dynamic, but recognise that some uncomfortable questions need to be answered, not because of a desire to demonise a section of the community, but in order to bring justice for those affected, accountability for those responsible, and to ensure these crimes are not still happening today and we can prevent them from happening in the future.
 
i kne albert davy said:
That quite a long post, when in reality you could have just said if nobody discusses that there is a problem then it can be ignored.
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No I said that nobody is actually discussing the problem and working towards a solution. Unless you see the problem as "PAKISTANI grooming gangs" rather than "Pakistani GROOMING GANGS" which is how most people are behaving.
 
Damocles said:
No I said that nobody is actually discussing the problem and working towards a solution. Unless you see the problem as "PAKISTANI grooming gangs" rather than "Pakistani GROOMING GANGS" which is how most people are behaving.
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Don't really know what the capital letters are all about yes there's a problem with grooming gangs, the also appears to be a worryingly large problem with people of Pakistani origin grooming that has been ignored for far to long with the usual implication that if you dare mention it makes you instantly racist. Nobody should be above the law which should come down hard on ANYONE abusing vulnerable young children and girls its unacceptable.
 
i kne albert davy said:
Don't really know what the capital letters are all about yes there's a problem with grooming gangs, the also appears to be a worryingly large problem with people of Pakistani origin grooming that has been ignored for far to long with the usual implication that if you dare mention it makes you instantly racist. Nobody should be above the law which should come down hard on ANYONE abusing vulnerable young children and girls its unacceptable.
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I don’t think many disagree with that, I haven’t seen much criticism of Casey’s report or her findings and that looking into the reasons and prevention of Pakistani grooming is something anyone should absolutely want to see.

It is also true that a lot of commentary has solely been about that particular facet with some not mentioning any of the other victims and their abusers whatsoever (I’m not talking about on here, I’m talking about certain politicians and commentators).

For those people, it has come across as political rather than really caring about victims (much like the other side that don’t want to talk about specific groups for whatever reason).

If people really care about justice for victims, which I’m sure most do, then it has to be for all of them and looking at the reasons and possible preventions across the spectrum, I think the concern some have is the political side of it gets more focus than keeping that as the main focus, which if it does, it’ll be another inquiry that won’t do what it needs to.
 
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