Student Debt

[SamTheGuru]

I’ve just seen the over £45k debt that my daughter owes the nation after three years Uni and I am fuming.

They say it’s not real debt and It doesn’t affect a students ability to get loans such as mortgages - Maybe not but it sure as hell affects there ability to repay loans when the debt is being taken at source.
If this type of debt was being sold by ocean finance there sure as hell would be a mis selling scandal.

Is 18 too soon to be giving our kids decisions on debt that potentially will affect the rest of their lives ?

As an employer I can honestly say that a University degree does little to enhance a thirty somethings job prospects (Supply Chain) as there are just so many of people with degrees now. I give much more weight to experience and social awareness than I do qualification's, so is there value in degrees ?

How many people who went to university instead of real work (4 years approx £60k debt) against 4 years of earning say 25k a year =£100k reckon that their degree has bridges the 160k plus interest gap ?

Much of University is a con. I don't think people should be going to University after they have finished their basic education. It should be a few years after they have found their trade.

We have so many people applying for Civil Engineering jobs with newly acquired Masters degrees, well above their paygrade, but they do not have one days working experience. They are basically unemployable for what they are trying to achieve, or what they believe they will get.

Of course there are trades where it is impossible to not be professionally qualified...Medicine, Law, etc.

 

[halfmist]

Having a degree has never been a golden ticket to instant wealth. There are some areas such as teaching and pharmacology to name two where they are valuable to society but they dont pay massive salaries (50-60k after a number of years).

I agree that universities should be more streamlined in their offering, with degrees much more generalised. Specialisation should be done at Masters level. I cant speak for every degree but I'll be honest 95% of my job, even when it was more academic could be done with not much more than first year degree level Physics. The things I covered beyond this are next to useless for the majority of the time and I did do an exceptionally technical, specialist role, for a number of years.

I also believe that direct access to university should be for the most academically gifted, but there should be alternative pathways for mature students, following time in industry and often time to mature. At present the almost open door of having a place for everyone regardless real apptitude isnt right, but as universities are now run as businesses, it will be difficult to sort this out.

Excellent post.
And this is where a lot of students go wrong.
Which is going to be easier, a degree in travel and tourism or a degree in a science subject.
The graduate in the science subject may decide to go in to tourism as a career, but the tourism graduate cannot go in to a science career and will be left with a mountain of debt for a career that didn’t require a degree in any case.
My theory is, if you are clever/ brave enough, go for a science, engineering, technology based degree as they prove you have the ability to learn and adapt, even if you have plans for life outside these subjects.
The stakes are very high of course, because there is no hiding place if the course proves too difficult.
My second point is, particularly as the market is flooded with graduates under the present system, try and follow it up with a professional qualification, particularly if the firm is prepared to pay for your further education and the qualification opens doors for new careers.
The harder it is to become something, the less competition you face in your chosen career.
I do take on board your point there are far too many going to Uni and then having to settle for a job that doesn’t need a degree.
Politically however, there is no Party who would say, what is the estimate of jobs that require ability at degree level and in what subjects, then restrict entry to Universities on that basis .
This is because it results in elitism which will always favour the middle classes.

 

[Silva Citizen]

You can buy a suit hand made in Saville Row or off the shelf in Primark.
Your choice.
Are Primark committing fraud?

Sorry I don’t get the comparison. Try comparing it to PPI mis selling where the lack of lenders disclosures was a major factor in many cases.

 

[halfmist]

Much of University is a con. I don't think people should be going to University after they have finished their basic education. It should be a few years after they have found their trade.

We have so many people applying for Civil Engineering jobs with newly acquired Masters degrees, well above their paygrade, but they do not have one days working experience. They are basically unemployable for what they are trying to achieve, or what they believe they will get.

Of course there are trades where it is impossible to not be professionally qualified...Medicine, Law, etc.

Fair point. However if someone has already found a career and is good at their job, who in their right mind is going to abandon it, say in their late 20’s, particularly if they have family commitments, to be saddled with further debts, probably a mortgage and no income. I don’t think there are many partners who would support them through it.

 

[117 M34]

Fair point. However if someone has already found a career and is good at their job, who in their right mind is going to abandon it, say in their late 20’s, particularly if they have family commitments, to be saddled with further debts, probably a mortgage and no income. I don’t think there are many partners who would support them through it.

I suppose the answer is for all degrees to include on the job experience.

 

[Kompany Car]

I suppose the answer is for all degrees to include on the job experience.

They can as a thick sandwich course. My son has just done a year in industry with Network Rail and has been fast tracked onto their graduate intake for 2026 pending him getting at least a 2:2 which considering he's on for a first should be easy. They also want to focus him on management rather than just engineering as he has shown an aptitude for it. They have been really good and even paid for a number of courses for him whilst working, along with paying him a bit above minimum wage. I know some of his friends who are going into medicine have done unpaid internships so he's pretty lucky.

 

[Corky]

Excellent post.
And this is where a lot of students go wrong.
Which is going to be easier, a degree in travel and tourism or a degree in a science subject.
The graduate in the science subject may decide to go in to tourism as a career, but the tourism graduate cannot go in to a science career and will be left with a mountain of debt for a career that didn’t require a degree in any case.
My theory is, if you are clever/ brave enough, go for a science, engineering, technology based degree as they prove you have the ability to learn and adapt, even if you have plans for life outside these subjects.
The stakes are very high of course, because there is no hiding place if the course proves too difficult.
My second point is, particularly as the market is flooded with graduates under the present system, try and follow it up with a professional qualification, particularly if the firm is prepared to pay for your further education and the qualification opens doors for new careers.
The harder it is to become something, the less competition you face in your chosen career.
I do take on board your point there are far too many going to Uni and then having to settle for a job that doesn’t need a degree.
Politically however, there is no Party who would say, what is the estimate of jobs that require ability at degree level and in what subjects, then restrict entry to Universities on that basis .
This is because it results in elitism which will always favour the middle classes.

Not all students are cut out to do Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering, if you are not naturally gifted in the areas you struggle or even worse fail.

There are lot of fairly generic degrees that cover the same modules that are probably better for the average person. For example economics, and you would cover economics modules on dozens of courses, marketing, law, business, studies, accounts, and vice versa in most cases given options. It used to be you did one of those if you didn't know what to do and didn't want something too difficult to understand.

 

[DenisLawBackHeel74]

Sorry OP, I don’t really have a lot of sympathy. I worked all the way through my degrees and even then left uni owing around £25k in loans in 2001. I worked hard and managed to pay off the loans within 5 years…..but had to postpone buying a house until I had done that.


You’re right that the job market is choc full of people with degrees but you cannot work in some professions without the right qualifications. My advice to anyone considering going to uni is to do a course that is a requirement for working in a particular sector…….and even then it’s pretty competitive.

 

[mexico1970]

My advice to anyone considering going to uni is to do a course that is a requirement for working in a particular sector…….and even then it’s pretty competitive.

And do your due diligence and make sure that..

1. Your chosen profession pays enough to warrant the debt
2. There are enough positions available in your chosen field so that you can actually find employment after
3. Understand that you will leave with debt and that goes with the territory .
4. On a further non related note buy some anti-liberal spray you're going to need it :)

 

[DenisLawBackHeel74]

They can as a thick sandwich course. My son has just done a year in industry with Network Rail and has been fast tracked onto their graduate intake for 2026 pending him getting at least a 2:2 which considering he's on for a first should be easy. They also want to focus him on management rather than just engineering as he has shown an aptitude for it. They have been really good and even paid for a number of courses for him whilst working, along with paying him a bit above minimum wage. I know some of his friends who are going into medicine have done unpaid internships so he's pretty lucky.

I think that’s the advice I’ll be giving my lad. Try to get in with a company scheme and do the qualifications with them simultaneously….

 

[Kompany Car]

Not all students are cut out to do Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering, if you are not naturally gifted in the areas you struggle or even worse fail.

There are lot of fairly generic degrees that cover the same modules that are probably better for the average person. For example economics, and you would cover economics modules on dozens of courses, marketing, law, business, studies, accounts, and vice versa in most cases given options. It used to be you did one of those if you didn't know what to do and didn't want something too difficult to understand.

I don’t think Economics is an easy degree by any means and is directly relatable to a whole variety of jobs in finance and business. The problem is with degrees that are relatively niche for example, why do a degree in criminal justice, do a degree in law instead. A degree in child and family studies, do psychology. There’s whole host of meaningless degrees out there which are supposedly targeted towards a specific career in a world where employers want strong general skills and significantly less specialists.

 

[halfmist]

Not all students are cut out to do Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering, if you are not naturally gifted in the areas you struggle or even worse fail.

There are lot of fairly generic degrees that cover the same modules that are probably better for the average person. For example economics, and you would cover economics modules on dozens of courses, marketing, law, business, studies, accounts, and vice versa in most cases given options. It used to be you did one of those if you didn't know what to do and didn't want something too difficult to understand.

That sounds a bit like me Corky!!. Mine was Business Studies and covered all the modules you have listed and more besides. I struggled badly with the pure maths in years 1+2 having 2 good 0 levels in the subject but no A level Maths so dropped the Maths option in favour of Industry and Trade for years 3+4. At the interview stage the Head Of Department warned me I would struggle without Maths A level and he was right. The students split for years 3+4 options depending on whether you were favouring Accountancy, Marketing or Personnel Management.

 

[halfmist]

I don’t think Economics is an easy degree by any means and is directly relatable to a whole variety of jobs in finance and business. The problem is with degrees that are relatively niche for example, why do a degree in criminal justice, do a degree in law instead. A degree in child and family studies, do psychology. There’s whole host of meaningless degrees out there which are supposedly targeted towards a specific career in a world where employers want strong general skills and significantly less specialists.

Exactly. If you specialise too early you narrow your options going forward.
It all depends on what you want in life.
My motivation was always money so I went in to Accountancy which is not the most exciting career choice.
However it paid very well so the excitement came more from what the extra money could buy rather than a happy smiley career.
At one interview the boss said we are very much a shirt sleeves approach firm.
Will you be prepared to make the tea.
My reply was I will stand in the kitchen all day and brew up, as long as you pay me the Accountants rate and not the tea ladies.

 

[halfmist]

They can as a thick sandwich course. My son has just done a year in industry with Network Rail and has been fast tracked onto their graduate intake for 2026 pending him getting at least a 2:2 which considering he's on for a first should be easy. They also want to focus him on management rather than just engineering as he has shown an aptitude for it. They have been really good and even paid for a number of courses for him whilst working, along with paying him a bit above minimum wage. I know some of his friends who are going into medicine have done unpaid internships so he's pretty lucky.

Sandwich courses are great if you are sponsored, if not it can be very difficult to get placements if there is an economic downturn during the degree.
Mine was a sandwich, 2 separate periods of 6 months which was great in terms of pay because the majority was covered by the personal tax allowance as they were different tax years so tax free
However the first placement fell into the period when Mrs T was cut,cut,cut with few jobs around.
Several of us students ended upon a food production line, excellent pay as the Union wouldn’t allow low balling of wages but crap in terms of business experience.

 

[Kompany Car]

Exactly. If you specialise too early you narrow your options going forward.
It all depends on what you want in life.
My motivation was always money so I went in to Accountancy which is not the most exciting career choice.
However it paid very well so the excitement came more from what the extra money could buy rather than a happy smiley career.
At one interview the boss said we are very much a shirt sleeves approach firm.
Will you be prepared to make the tea.
My reply was I will stand in the kitchen all day and brew up, as long as you pay me the Accountants rate and not the tea ladies.

Thats been my attitude ever since I started work, as long as you pay me the salary of the grade you employed me at, if you want me to sweep the floor or clean the windows then fine Im quite happy doing it. You do encounter more and more people these days however who think menial tasks are beneath them.

Theres a number of the times in my life when I've been the most overpaid, overqualified tea maker, but if it needed doing to bring a team together, keep a potential customer happy or just diffuse a situation it was probably worth every penny they paid me.

 

[Silva Citizen]

Sorry OP, I don’t really have a lot of sympathy. I worked all the way through my degrees and even then left uni owing around £25k in loans in 2001. I worked hard and managed to pay off the loans within 5 years…..but had to postpone buying a house until I had done that.


You’re right that the job market is choc full of people with degrees but you cannot work in some professions without the right qualifications. My advice to anyone considering going to uni is to do a course that is a requirement for working in a particular sector…….and even then it’s pretty competitive.

I’m not looking for sympathy thank you. As I said in a previous post, she got experience out of it and hopefully (awaiting confirmation results) a first. But that doesn’t mean that I should agree with a system that is going to hamper and hinder our kids, maybe her included maybe not. The system has moved on since 2001 which also happens to be the year my much younger Sister graduated. Her debt is /was manageable but the amount of debt and interest rates charged today means the kids will possibly be penalised by a stealth tax for years. There is a time bonb ticking here.

 

[TShed]

Much of University is a con. I don't think people should be going to University after they have finished their basic education. It should be a few years after they have found their trade.

We have so many people applying for Civil Engineering jobs with newly acquired Masters degrees, well above their paygrade, but they do not have one days working experience. They are basically unemployable for what they are trying to achieve, or what they believe they will get.

Of course there are trades where it is impossible to not be professionally qualified...Medicine, Law, etc.

Spot on
Actually medical and law are quite drawn out where students have to do a significant amount of practical work in their respective fields
I also advocate most degrees need to be what was known as sandwich courses with at least one of four years in a honours degree is done as a placement and more ideally where the student is being sponsored by the placement company
This would keep student loans in check and almost guarantee a full time position where the course proves to be relevant to the chosen career and the employer can fast track the graduate appropriately

 

[meltonblue]

Spot on
Actually medical and law are quite drawn out where students have to do a significant amount of practical work in their respective fields
I also advocate most degrees need to be what was known as sandwich courses with at least one of four years in a honours degree is done as a placement and more ideally where the student is being sponsored by the placement company
This would keep student loans in check and almost guarantee a full time position where the course proves to be relevant to the chosen career and the employer can fast track the graduate appropriately

Ideal world completely. The issue there is the number of placements, my sons about to go into this third year, is on for a first and wasn’t able to get one so is instead going to start trying for graduate placements after he finishes.

The other issue I’ve seen is the lack of jobs for young people nowadays while they’re studying, particularly in the breaks. When I was at uni, I was able to earn pretty much every break just doing temporary factory work, which you could get at a days notice. As we don’t make anything anymore, this jobs just don’t exist and everyone is fighting for the same jobs, usually in hospitality.

 

[Blue Mist]

Sorry, misread the title thread.
I thought it was about that poster that shags sheep.

You ok @snorky. ?
Love yah man

Edit: which thread have I just posted in ?
Fuck it, still hope your good Snorks


(Goes off to find the right thread)

 

[SamTheGuru]

The other issue I’ve seen is the lack of jobs for young people nowadays while they’re studying, particularly in the breaks. When I was at uni, I was able to earn pretty much every break just doing temporary factory work, which you could get at a days notice. As we don’t make anything anymore, this jobs just don’t exist and everyone is fighting for the same jobs, usually in hospitality.

I am sorry but this is bollocks. There are jobs literally going everywhere. As a senior person in a £150m t/o civil engineering company, we struggle to recruit everything from apprentices, labourers, technicians, supervisors and managers.