The Labour Government

Chippy_boy said:
I'm just reminded that the government had to scrap the maximum £1m pension pot tax-free limit, specifically because of the vast numbers of doctors it was impacting who had already amassed their £1m pension. How many people have that???
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You'd be surprised. The way the benefits of DB schemes (a muliplier x years in service) were calculated meant that anyone on over about £50k fell into that category. I know someone who benefitted from the removal of the LTA to the tune of £750000 when they reached 75, when a further calculation used to be carried out. He was not a doctor.
 
hampshireblue said:
So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.

You chose your career path, as did I. You went to university-for free-despite telling us a couple of weeks ago when you said : "I am 64 and have benefitted from none of the things you mention"- one of which was a free university course.

I too was on about £5k a year when I started work in 1979 but didn't go to university. I always contributed a minimum of 10% to a DB pension which has worked out well. Did you always contribute?

I don't agree with what the Drs are doing right now, but neither should they be compared to some other random job that you and I may have done.

Any future pay rises they do get should be linked to a reduction in their student debt as well as some form of bonding system that they have to work for the NHS for a minimum period of time.
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You’re being very disingenuous when you say their pay is £35k, you’ve entirely ignored unsociable pay - as a more realistic figure The Nuffield Trust state they estimate a FY1 receives £45,900.

I do agree things like student debt should be removed after a set period of working in NHS. I’d argue same for nurses, teachers, etc etc.

Oh and you contributed to a DB pension and it worked out well? Colour me shocked!!!!
 
Kompany Car said:
A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.
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100% the strike is “greed” based on state of public finances but when you capitulate to the last strike saying how it made sense due to costs etc you can’t be surprised when they come back for more!!

Many on here, yourself included I believe, warned this would happen https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c19kdyyxzr3o
 
hampshireblue said:
So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.
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Are we at cross-purposes? Doctors START on £36,000 but with overtime and addons like out of hours cover, no-one earns that. Year2 is £42,000 basic plus extras. And they get their generous pension from day1*

* My mistake - the combined contribution is 27%, of which is 23% employer.
 
hampshireblue said:
So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.

You chose your career path, as did I. You went to university-for free-despite telling us a couple of weeks ago when you said : "I am 64 and have benefitted from none of the things you mention"- one of which was a free university course.

I too was on about £5k a year when I started work in 1979 but didn't go to university. I always contributed a minimum of 10% to a DB pension which has worked out well. Did you always contribute?

I don't agree with what the Drs are doing right now, but neither should they be compared to some other random job that you and I may have done.

Any future pay rises they do get should be linked to a reduction in their student debt as well as some form of bonding system that they have to work for the NHS for a minimum period of time.
Click to expand...
This is what the Nuffield Trust gives in their data...


1000001956.png
Updated as they published this the other day.
 
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hampshireblue said:
You'd be surprised. The way the benefits of DB schemes (a muliplier x years in service) were calculated meant that anyone on over about £50k fell into that category. I know someone who benefitted from the removal of the LTA to the tune of £750000 when they reached 75, when a further calculation used to be carried out. He was not a doctor.
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To be honest I wouldn't. But the average doctor may get to a £1m pot rather sooner - like circa by aged 50 - with 27% of an escalating salary starting at.£36k going in.
 
hampshireblue said:
You'd be surprised. The way the benefits of DB schemes (a muliplier x years in service) were calculated meant that anyone on over about £50k fell into that category. I know someone who benefitted from the removal of the LTA to the tune of £750000 when they reached 75, when a further calculation used to be carried out. He was not a doctor.
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Plus, plenty of doctors salary-sacrifice their private work into a private pension to keep their tax bill down. It's a pretty efficient way of doing it.
 
Kompany Car said:
A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.
Click to expand...
There’s another side to this that I didn’t grasp until one of the heads of the BMA came out with it on R5L. Nicky Campbell got her to snap and she replied that she wanted political change, wanting the government to tax the wealthy to fund them (not the NHS or other social services), as well as other benefits such as free training, subsidised housing, etc.

Then you see that the NHS want to keep scheduled appointments staffed by senior doctors, who then, under BMA advice, want to charge inflated prices for their time.

Looks like even though they are paid a good renumeration package, increased by nearly 30% over 3 years, they will all be getting an increased cut of the pie which will have to come from the current NHS budget.

So much for them looking after the profession that they care about, it’s now abundantly clear that it’s all about themselves.
 
hampshireblue said:
So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.

You chose your career path, as did I. You went to university-for free-despite telling us a couple of weeks ago when you said : "I am 64 and have benefitted from none of the things you mention"- one of which was a free university course.

I too was on about £5k a year when I started work in 1979 but didn't go to university. I always contributed a minimum of 10% to a DB pension which has worked out well. Did you always contribute?

I don't agree with what the Drs are doing right now, but neither should they be compared to some other random job that you and I may have done.

Any future pay rises they do get should be linked to a reduction in their student debt as well as some form of bonding system that they have to work for the NHS for a minimum period of time.
Click to expand...
What I did / did not contribute to my pension is none of your business. Although FYI no employer ever offered me any DB scheme.

Anyways 2 things:

1. As I've stated before, I have done OK for myself and am not moaning about my situation, merely pointing out the reality for the vast majority of people, who incidentally don't have any spare money to put into any pension in their early years of employment.

2. Again, this is not about me.

Finally, I find your constant sniping at my posts unbelievably tiresome. It's like having a stalker. So I am now putting you on ignore. You've added zero to my understanding on anything and I disagree with your politics on every level. So please feel free to criticise and insult to your hearts consent. I won't be seeing it. Goodbye.
 
Chippy_boy said:
What I did / did not contribute to my pension is none of your business. Although FYI no employer ever offered me any DB scheme.

Anyways 2 things:

1. As I've stated before, I have done OK for myself and am not moaning about my situation, merely pointing out the reality for the vast majority of people, who incidentally don't have any spare money to put into any pension in their early years of employment.

2. Again, this is not about me.

Finally, I find your constant sniping at my posts unbelievably tiresome. It's like having a stalker. So I am now putting you on ignore. You've added zero to my understanding on anything and I disagree with your politics on every level. So please feel free to criticise and insult to your hearts consent. I won't be seeing it. Goodbye.
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I have been here for quite a while. I don't put him on ignore because I find his silly and irrelevant comments and digs mildly amusing, but I do get where you're coming from, he is very irrelevant and can be tiresome. Stalker is a good description.

Sadly, Not replying is not a deterrent
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
There’s another side to this that I didn’t grasp until one of the heads of the BMA came out with it on R5L. Nicky Campbell got her to snap and she replied that she wanted political change, wanting the government to tax the wealthy to fund them (not the NHS or other social services), as well as other benefits such as free training, subsidised housing, etc.

Then you see that the NHS want to keep scheduled appointments staffed by senior doctors, who then, under BMA advice, want to charge inflated prices for their time.

Looks like even though they are paid a good renumeration package, increased by nearly 30% over 3 years, they will all be getting an increased cut of the pie which will have to come from the current NHS budget.

So much for them looking after the profession that they care about, it’s now abundantly clear that it’s all about themselves.
Click to expand...
It’s not surprising when you have the deputy chairman of the BMA council, Emma Runswick, openly describes herself as an “unashamed socialist,” and the BMA council includes members who openly criticize mainstream Labour with slurs such as calling them “proto-fascist red Tories”.
 
metalblue said:
You’re being very disingenuous when you say their pay is £35k, you’ve entirely ignored unsociable pay - as a more realistic figure The Nuffield Trust state they estimate a FY1 receives £45,900.

I do agree things like student debt should be removed after a set period of working in NHS. I’d argue same for nurses, teachers, etc etc.

Oh and you contributed to a DB pension and it worked out well? Colour me shocked!!!!
Click to expand...
I meant average salary across the country. As I well know, unsociable pay is dependant on the situation and is not guaranteed, and is often not acceptable for a mortgage application. Nothing disingenuous at all.
 
Chippy_boy said:
What I did / did not contribute to my pension is none of your business. Although FYI no employer ever offered me any DB scheme.

Anyways 2 things:

1. As I've stated before, I have done OK for myself and am not moaning about my situation, merely pointing out the reality for the vast majority of people, who incidentally don't have any spare money to put into any pension in their early years of employment.

2. Again, this is not about me.

Finally, I find your constant sniping at my posts unbelievably tiresome. It's like having a stalker. So I am now putting you on ignore. You've added zero to my understanding on anything and I disagree with your politics on every level. So please feel free to criticise and insult to your hearts consent. I won't be seeing it. Goodbye.
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He won't see it but I can't help it if the most persistent poster-14 posts today since 5.20am! -( and therefore the one who probably get's the most replies) doesn't like an opposing opinion.

It's also not my fault if one week he lies about having benefitted from a free education and the next week tells us he's got a good degree and is 64 and someone calls him out on said lie.

It's also a shame he clearly thinks it's OK to compare job roles to decide who's worth what. Ah well.....
 
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BigJoe#1 said:
I have been here for quite a while. I don't put him on ignore because I find his silly and irrelevant comments and digs mildly amusing, but I do get where you're coming from, he is very irrelevant and can be tiresome. Stalker is a good description.

Sadly, Not replying is not a deterrent
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But at least Chippy occasionally came out with some constructive comments and his own ideas how to make things better.
 
hampshireblue said:
I meant average salary across the country. As I well know, unsociable pay is dependant on the situation and is not guaranteed, and is often not acceptable for a mortgage application. Nothing disingenuous at all.
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Jesus we’re heading down the rabbit hole here…mortgageable power eh?

Stop moving the goal posts and take a leaf out of Starmer’s book… he knows when to do a u turn and stop digging. I do sometimes wonder if you’re the type who would argue with a sign post.
 
metalblue said:
Jesus we’re heading down the rabbit hole here…mortgageable power eh?

Stop moving the goal posts and take a leaf out of Starmer’s book… he knows when to do a u turn and stop digging. I do sometimes wonder if you’re the type who would argue with a sign post.
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Have you ever worked shifts and tried to get a mortgage? I have. It may be slightly different nowadays but lenders would not consider variable Unsocial Hours Payments. So when a poster suggest a salary which includes UHP and says the Drs are doing really well, that may not be quite accurate.
 
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