The Labour Government

[Chippy_boy]

see what I mean @Chippy_boy.... he just can't help himself

Well I would, but I haven't seen it, no :-)

 

[Chippy_boy]

The doctors are protesting that pay today is in real terms lower than it was in 2008.

But the Mrs just said something that amused me: None of them were junior doctors in 2008 (obviously).

So they are not actually protesting about what's happened to their pay - they were never paid it!

They are actually just protesting that some other people in a completely different era, were paid more than they are. Well boo hoo.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

It’s not surprising when you have the deputy chairman of the BMA council, Emma Runswick, openly describes herself as an “unashamed socialist,” and the BMA council includes members who openly criticize mainstream Labour with slurs such as calling them “proto-fascist red Tories”.

It’s been an all-out attack in some cases, as that interview showed. Interesting that they are classed as being on the left, but are happy to take more money for themselves while leaving other areas to rot.

I’ve read quite a lot of their demands over the years and have found myself in agreement with some of their claims, but cannot agree with them now as they move the goalposts.

They were claiming anywhere from 26 to 35 % reparation over the last few years but then I read an article from Nuffield Trust (?) which stated that the figures were incorrect, and that 15% was the real amount, with about 10% average for the rest of the public sector. So, following a near 29% pay rise they still come back and say they are owed a further 29%?

How do they get these figures, well by including every caveat possible, including their loss of pay when they were on strike and RPI, instead of the recognised CPI for public workers.

So, basically, they have stuck two fingers up at the rest of the country and using their influence to try and shift government policy while some of our loved ones will be seriously inconvenienced, or, even worse, could die.

 

[Chippy_boy]

It’s been an all-out attack in some cases, as that interview showed. Interesting that they are classed as being on the left, but are happy to take more money for themselves while leaving other areas to rot.

I’ve read quite a lot of their demands over the years and have found myself in agreement with some of their claims, but cannot agree with them now as they move the goalposts.

They were claiming anywhere from 26 to 35 % reparation over the last few years but then I read an article from Nuffield Trust (?) which stated that the figures were incorrect, and that 15% was the real amount, with about 10% average for the rest of the public sector. So, following a near 29% pay rise they still come back and say they are owed a further 29%?

How do they get these figures, well by including every caveat possible, including their loss of pay when they were on strike and RPI, instead of the recognised CPI for public workers.

So, basically, they have stuck two fingers up at the rest of the country and using their influence to try and shift government policy while some of our loved ones will be seriously inconvenienced, or, even worse, could die.

So much for their "calling" and their Hippocratic Oath!

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

So much for their "calling" and their Hippocratic Oath!

You can see why they only had a 55% return on the vote. The lack of pay rises would have created a 2 tier system where those high up the pay scale would’ve been fairly well off while those coming into the system would be very much worse off, compared.

When you break it down, none of this makes sense unless it is a power play. They asked for a pay rise of 30%, from £14 ph to £18-19. They get that but now are saying that they want another 30%, from £18-19 ph to £23. So, they want a near 60% rise over 2 years.

I won’t be supporting them as they don’t support our country, just hold it financial hostage.

 

[metalblue]

Have you ever worked shifts and tried to get a mortgage? I have. It may be slightly different nowadays but lenders would not consider variable Unsocial Hours Payments. So when a poster suggest a salary which includes UHP and says the Drs are doing really well, that may not be quite accurate.

What has any of that got to do with doctor’s pay though? If I was Streeting I’d offer them a 30% pay rise in return for them losing their unsociable pay.

In other news anyone who has worked in the NHS will tell you about “black Wednesday”. Mrs MB was only last night dreading it. Try not to get ill during August and need to go in to hospital ;)

 

[Chippy_boy]

You can see why they only had a 55% return on the vote. The lack of pay rises would have created a 2 tier system where those high up the pay scale would’ve been fairly well off while those coming into the system would be very much worse off, compared.

When you break it down, none of this makes sense unless it is a power play. They asked for a pay rise of 30%, from £14 ph to £18-19. They get that but now are saying that they want another 30%, from £18-19 ph to £23. So, they want a near 60% rise over 2 years.

I won’t be supporting them as they don’t support our country, just hold it financial hostage.

Is there an argument to say we might consider - not under this government obviously - making strike action in the NHS illegal, as it is for the police? And instead establish an independent pay review body whose pay recommendations become binding? Or at least illegal amongst some key groups?

I fail to see how caring for the sick is not an essential public service just as is patrolling the streets and keeping us safe (not that the police do much of that these days but you know what I mean).

The doctors are not only holding Streeting to ransom, they are threatening the financial stability of the entire country. Bond yields are already through the roof due to our inability to control public sector spending.

 

[Hertzblue]

We shouldn't be surprised by the BMA , they have fond memories of the last time they had the pleasure of negotiating with a Labour government. They are clearly looking to take advantage whilst the opportunity presents itself.
After all , only 4 more years if that .

 

[Chippy_boy]

We shouldn't be surprised by the BMA , they have fond memories of the last time they had the pleasure of negotiating with a Labour government. They are clearly looking to take advantage whilst the opportunity presents itself.
After all , only 4 more years if that .

Exactly so. If Streeting is smart - and I think he is actually - he will be saying to them, this is the best you are going to get and if you keep pushing your luck we could end up in general election, a Reform government and then you’re going to be really fucked:

“Think VERY carefully which side your bread is buttered on!”

 

[bluenova]

Exactly so. If Streeting is smart - and I think he is actually - he will be saying to them, this is the best you are going to get and if you keep pushing your luck we could end up in general election, a Reform government and then you’re going to be really fucked:

“Think VERY carefully which side your bread is buttered on!”

I was wondering this. An alternative view is accepting gradual rises with Labour, but weigh up the risk of getting a Reform government part way through the process, or they push Labour now while they're potentially weak, so that their pay is in a better place even if Reform do get in.

 

[hampshireblue]

What has any of that got to do with doctor’s pay though? If I was Streeting I’d offer them a 30% pay rise in return for them losing their unsociable pay.

In other news anyone who has worked in the NHS will tell you about “black Wednesday”. Mrs MB was only last night dreading it. Try not to get ill during August and need to go in to hospital ;)

When people quote Dr's salaries, it's pointing out that not all of that salary is guaranteed. So it would be absolutely relevant if the membership is telling the union they can't afford to buy a property.

I agree with you on the first point. We got rid of Weekend/Bank holiday premiums in the mid 80s. I believe UHP is still in force but my ex-employer guarantees it with lenders nowadays apart from a caveat if ill health kicks in.

 

[GH64]

You can see why they only had a 55% return on the vote. The lack of pay rises would have created a 2 tier system where those high up the pay scale would’ve been fairly well off while those coming into the system would be very much worse off, compared.

When you break it down, none of this makes sense unless it is a power play. They asked for a pay rise of 30%, from £14 ph to £18-19. They get that but now are saying that they want another 30%, from £18-19 ph to £23. So, they want a near 60% rise over 2 years.

I won’t be supporting them as they don’t support our country, just hold it financial hostage.

They had a 55% return because most doctors aren’t thick and there are 2 hurdles at the moment - 50% of votes cast but also 50% of people have to vote.
Here they got 49.5% of all resident doctors voting for a strike, but a few not so bright ones voted against which validated the ballot.

 

[metalblue]

When people quote Dr's salaries, it's pointing out that not all of that salary is guaranteed. So it would be absolutely relevant if the membership is telling the union they can't afford to buy a property.

I agree with you on the first point. We got rid of Weekend/Bank holiday premiums in the mid 80s. I believe UHP is still in force but my ex-employer guarantees it with lenders nowadays apart from a caveat if ill health kicks in.

In all reality though how long before they can afford to buy a property? 3 years post uni? Way before their 30th birthday. Plenty of grads would bite your hand off for that.

 

[BlueAnorak]

The Resident doctors - formally Junior doctors - can just fuck right off. Unless of course they are willing to give up their gold plated pensions when they can have more.
They no longer work hard as their predicessors did.when the shift is done they go home - no commitment to staying to finish outstanding patient notes or writing up reports. Just bye.
Time was when they were committed to patients and got their reward as Registrars and Consultants when they were promoted.
My daughter a senior consultant is sick of them.

 

[BlueAnorak]

BTW The 6% rise to GPs is not what it seems...
GPS have a shedload of other costs to pay out in buying into a practice and practice running costs that have rocketed since 2020.
The NHS does NOT pay for these.

 

[Blue and true]

The Resident doctors - formally Junior doctors - can just fuck right off. Unless if course they are willing to give up their gold plated pensions when they can have another 5%.
They no longer work hard as their predicessors did.when the shift is done they go home - no commitment to staying to finish outstanding patient notes or writing up reports. Just bye.
Time was when they were committed to patients and got their reward as Registrars and Consultants when they were promoted.
My daughter a senior consultant is sick of them.

With respect to your second paragraph, how exactly do you know this? I work in engineering and spend a considerable amount of time working outside of my normal hours, this is now incumbent on most professions. I doubt very much that junior doctors will be dossing outside of their shift hours; most will still be studying vigorously if they value their career trajectory.

 

[BlueAnorak]

With respect to your second paragraph, how exactly do you know this? I work in engineering and spend a considerable amount of time working outside of my normal hours, this is now incumbent on most professions. I doubt very much that junior doctors will be dossing outside of their shift hours; most will still be studying vigorously if they value their career trajectory.

Anocdotal evidence from my daughter, who as I previously stated in my response, is a senior Consultant.
Like the rest of the Milenial generation, the entitlement level is off the fucking scale. It applies in IT too - my profession.

 

[bluethrunthru]

With respect to your second paragraph, how exactly do you know this? I work in engineering and spend a considerable amount of time working outside of my normal hours, this is now incumbent on most professions. I doubt very much that junior doctors will be dossing outside of their shift hours; most will still be studying vigorously if they value their career trajectory.

annual validation for a start - which will be required of the posters daughter ( something not yet required of the better paid PA's) and Resident Doctors have to review and sign off the work of a PA. Something that would be an anathema for a qualified consultant as there were no PA's when they were a Junior Doctor

How doctors keep up to date (Revalidation) | RCOG

www.rcog.org.uk

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

For several of the years in question the JDs voted to accept the government pay rise terms. Absolute chancers trying to get more years later

 

[Blue and true]

Annac

Anocdotal evidence from my daughter, who as I previously stated in my response, is a senior Consultant.
Like the rest of the Milenial generation, the entitlement level is off the fucking scale. It applies in IT too - my profession.

There are a couple of apprentices at our place who scream entitled, nevertheless they are diligent. I don't think necessarily that entitlement and hard work are mutually exclusive.