6th Richest Country in the World?

[Chippy_boy]

I regret adding the bit about child poverty because it's a distraction from the point of the thread.

The point is, and this is aimed specifically at those of you with a left-wing bias: We are fucking broke. There is no magic money tree; we cannot just pay for better public services by endlessly borrowing more OR by fooling ourselves that "someone else, but not me" can pay for it.

We either have to put up with public services as they are, or get real and accept that MOST PEOPLES' taxes will have to go up. This "Tax the rich" selfish bollocks is unrealistic. It doesn't work beyond a certain point, and that point is where we are. Nor "Tax the corporations". More selfish bollocks, i.e. "I don't want to pay any more - get someone else to pay".

 

[KS55]

I’m not being flippant here, but having seen the cost of a Guinness in Dublin, I’m surprised to see Ireland at the top of that purchasing power list.

Lots of double tax relief deals with Amazon etc. Until a recent change in our regs, all Amazon sales in the UK were booked to their Irish subsid.
Ireland has agreed with EU to phase out their schemes.

 

[chesterbells]

Lots of double tax relief deals with Amazon etc. Until a recent change in our regs, all Amazon sales in the UK were booked to their Irish subsid.
Ireland has agreed with EU to phase out their schemes.

Yep, tbh their tax rules bringing in all the American giant multinationals etc must be the only reason I could think of that would explain them topping the list.

I certainly didn’t feel like I had a lot of purchasing power last time I was over there!

 

[the blue panther]

And, BTW the above list is in order. Richest per capita (and in purchasing power terms) at the top. What shocks me is which countries in Europe are better off than us.

Ireland
Norway
Denmark
Switzerland
Netherlands
Iceland
Austria
Sweden
Germany
Belgium
Finland
France
Italy
Spain

What a ****ing mess.

Quick: let's reverse Brexit!

 

[Saddleworth2]

I don't buy into this "relative poverty" definition. By that definition if everyone in the UK is on £100k a year, someone on £60k is in poverty. That's plain daft.

They arent though mate. The median UK household disposable income after housing costs was £32,400.

In 2022/23, a single person with no children was considered to be in poverty if their weekly income was £190 or less after housing costs. £9880

​

For a couple with no children, the absolute poverty threshold was £15,548 pa after housing costs.

For a couple with two children in the UK, the poverty line, after housing costs, is around £23,900 annually.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported that 13.4 million people were in poverty in 2020/21, representing 20% of the population and its getting worse. In their most recent report they estimate 40% of those classed as below the poverty line are in 'very deep poverty or destitution'.

I wouldn't fancy having to survive on those figures.​

 

[BobKowalski]

You know you make a seperate point, which actually makes my figures worse.

My figures are GDP per capita in relative purchasing power - which is what matters. But on the basis of the UK average we are 28th, and yet our GDP is heavily skewed towards London and the south. I can only speculate where we'd be if you excluded London from the figures. I doubt we'd be in the top 50.

You need several things.

Greater devolved political power for regions - we vote against it because we are told it will involve more bureaucracy and be a waste of money. Result we remain London centric.

More public investment in infrastructure like rail in the North - we cancelled it. Waste of money. London meanwhile gets Crossrail.

Distribution of funds from South to North - ie levelling up or something like the Barnett formula which applies in Scotland et al, which I seem to recall you were against.

We bitch about the problem and then bitch even more about the proposed solutions and end up doing nothing - and then bitch about the problem all over again.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I regret adding the bit about child poverty because it's a distraction from the point of the thread.

The point is, and this is aimed specifically at those of you with a left-wing bias: We are fucking broke. There is no magic money tree; we cannot just pay for better public services by endlessly borrowing more OR by fooling ourselves that "someone else, but not me" can pay for it.

We either have to put up with public services as they are, or get real and accept that MOST PEOPLES' taxes will have to go up. This "Tax the rich" selfish bollocks is unrealistic. It doesn't work beyond a certain point, and that point is where we are. Nor "Tax the corporations". More selfish bollocks, i.e. "I don't want to pay any more - get someone else to pay".

That's what 14 years of Tories have done for our nation - but as soon as Labour make any move to increase taxes or cut budget from somewhere they get absolutely hammered.

 

[Chippy_boy]

They arent though mate. The median UK household disposable income after housing costs was £32,400.

In 2022/23, a single person with no children was considered to be in poverty if their weekly income was £190 or less after housing costs. £9880

​

For a couple with no children, the absolute poverty threshold was £15,548 pa after housing costs.

For a couple with two children in the UK, the poverty line, after housing costs, is around £23,900 annually.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported that 13.4 million people were in poverty in 2020/21, representing 20% of the population and its getting worse. In their most recent report they estimate 40% of those classed as below the poverty line are in 'very deep poverty or destitution'.

I wouldn't fancy having to survive on those figures.​

Opinions vary though. The DWP (in 2024) say this:

• In financial year ending (FYE) 2024, there were 2.72 million children aged 0 to 15 (22%) in families in Relative low income and 2.34 million children aged 0 to 15 (19%) in Absolute low income families across the United Kingdom

And even accepting your figures, £23,900 per year after housing costs, is £460 per week. Of course that's far from rich, you could even say far from comfortable. But poverty? I find it hard to believe that a family of 4 cannot heat, feed and clothe themselves and their 2 kids for £460 per week. You can feed everyone for less than £100 per week.

(My point was exclusively about child poverty)

 

[Chippy_boy]

That's what 14 years of Tories have done for our nation - but as soon as Labour make any move to increase taxes or cut budget from somewhere they get absolutely hammered.

They should never have promised not to raise income tax IMO. If you want better public services, 20% basic rate is unrealistically low.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yep, tbh their tax rules bringing in all the American giant multinationals etc must be the only reason I could think of that would explain them topping the list.

I certainly didn’t feel like I had a lot of purchasing power last time I was over there!

And people want to put our corporation tax up more, and hammer the corporations more. Look what happens when you do the opposite. The economy booms. Wouldn't it be great if loads of European companies decided to move their profits to the UK instead of Ireland or the Netherlands. And now out of the EU, we can incentivise just that. Well, until Starmer agrees to further straightjacketing, sorry, "alignment".

I always said I wanted the UK to be the Singapore just north of France*, and where's Singapore on the list? Oh, the top.


* To be clear, I never thought the EU would allow it.

 

[hampshireblue]

They arent though mate. The median UK household disposable income after housing costs was £32,400.

In 2022/23, a single person with no children was considered to be in poverty if their weekly income was £190 or less after housing costs. £9880

​

For a couple with no children, the absolute poverty threshold was £15,548 pa after housing costs.

For a couple with two children in the UK, the poverty line, after housing costs, is around £23,900 annually.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported that 13.4 million people were in poverty in 2020/21, representing 20% of the population and its getting worse. In their most recent report they estimate 40% of those classed as below the poverty line are in 'very deep poverty or destitution'.

I wouldn't fancy having to survive on those figures.​

I can't reply to Chippy as he has blocked me, but, you should know that if he doesn't like a particular metric, it will get manipulated to fit his view.

As for taxing the big corporations, Lloyds and HSBC announced 17% and 18% rises in their profits for basically doing nothing as most of the rise was due to interest rates. HSBC are doing a massive share buy back and also paying significant dividends, all this despite a 46% tax rate on them-14% less than someone pays on a salary of £110000 where the marginal rate is 60%.

 

[Blue and true]

I regret adding the bit about child poverty because it's a distraction from the point of the thread.

The point is, and this is aimed specifically at those of you with a left-wing bias: We are fucking broke. There is no magic money tree; we cannot just pay for better public services by endlessly borrowing more OR by fooling ourselves that "someone else, but not me" can pay for it.

We either have to put up with public services as they are, or get real and accept that MOST PEOPLES' taxes will have to go up. This "Tax the rich" selfish bollocks is unrealistic. It doesn't work beyond a certain point, and that point is where we are. Nor "Tax the corporations". More selfish bollocks, i.e. "I don't want to pay any more - get someone else to pay".

Child poverty is all comparative. Compared to a child dying of hunger in a third world country, they are not living in poverty. Compared to some of their better-off counterparts here in the UK, they are living in poverty. It's sinful the conditions some of our children are expected to endure, there's enough material and reportage out there to confirm this. My girlfriend is a primary school teacher, each Christmas she buys at least three of the children in her year presents, not much, but a bit of something. Because they have nothing. Literally fuck all. I don't remember this being the case when I was a child, and I grew up in a happy but working-class household. So something has gone drastically wrong somewhere.

Most wouldn't begrudge paying more tax if it improved public services and gave more resources to welfare. Myself personally? I could give a fuck if £10 extra came out of my taxes each month to fund this. And many would feel the same. But let's not pretend the ultra-rich, i.e corporations and fans of offshore havens are paying their fair share. Because they're not.

Tax is only fair if it's commensurate across the board.

 

[BridgyDids]

I regret adding the bit about child poverty because it's a distraction from the point of the thread.

The point is, and this is aimed specifically at those of you with a left-wing bias: We are fucking broke. There is no magic money tree; we cannot just pay for better public services by endlessly borrowing more OR by fooling ourselves that "someone else, but not me" can pay for it.

We either have to put up with public services as they are, or get real and accept that MOST PEOPLES' taxes will have to go up. This "Tax the rich" selfish bollocks is unrealistic. It doesn't work beyond a certain point, and that point is where we are. Nor "Tax the corporations". More selfish bollocks, i.e. "I don't want to pay any more - get someone else to pay".

Chippers, me old mucker.

You’re starting to sound like me now. We’re both in agreement that everyone needs to share the burden?

No comment on here, about Farage saying state pension age will have to “rise faster than expected”

“I don’t think we can really afford to [wait to the 2040s], to be frank.
If there is a sudden economic miracle, then it might change that. But it does not look to be happening any time soon.
I don’t think the country has any choice. The state pension age will gradually have to be increased, in line with life expectancy. There is little doubt about it.”

Nigel Farage warns State Pension age 'will have to rise' faster than expected

The Reform UK leader said: "I don’t think the country has any choice"

www.birminghammail.co.uk

I wonder what those who complained about the Winter Fuel Allowance, and the thought of the triple lock will say?
Equally as appalled at these comments I expect?

Personally, I agree with him. I think there does need to be some form of reform, and it should be means tested, as should the WFA.

Also, what is it with you, and commenting in agreement on all the topics that Nigel has just said, and raising it as a thread?

It’s almost like there is a psychic connection between you both.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Opinions vary though. The DWP (in 2024) say this:

• In financial year ending (FYE) 2024, there were 2.72 million children aged 0 to 15 (22%) in families in Relative low income and 2.34 million children aged 0 to 15 (19%) in Absolute low income families across the United Kingdom

And even accepting your figures, £23,900 per year after housing costs, is £460 per week. Of course that's far from rich, you could even say far from comfortable. But poverty? I find it hard to believe that a family of 4 cannot heat, feed and clothe themselves and their 2 kids for £460 per week. You can feed everyone for less than £100 per week.

(My point was exclusively about child poverty)

Ok, if you want to focus on child poverty, here is another finding from the JRF (you either believe in their independence and objectivity or you don't). I choose to.

Just focusing on destitution which is ;
People are considered destitute if they have not been able to meet their most basic physical needs to stay warm, dry, clean and fed. This can be because they either lack necessities like clothing, heating, shelter or food. Or because their income is so extremely low that they are unable to purchase these items for themselves.

• Around 3.8 million people experienced destitution in 2022 – a 61% increase since 2019
• This includes around 1 million children – an 88% increase since 2019
• The number of people experiencing destitution in the UK has more than doubled in the last five years – up from 1,550,000 in 2017
• Since 2017 the number of children experiencing destitution has almost tripled – an increase of 186%
• Almost two thirds of people who experienced destitution in 2022 have a disability or chronic health problem
• The social security system is not protecting people from destitution: 72% of those destitute are in receipt of benefits

Very sad. It is a political choice not to address this issue adequately and I include our own Scottish Government who at least have set hard targets for the eradication of child poverty but so far have not shown limited progress they set themselves. Nobody is saying its an easy fix against the current financial backdrop but hard choices need to be made and if it means tax increases for those that earn more than average, so be it.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I can't reply to Chippy as he has blocked me, but, you should know that if he doesn't like a particular metric, it will get manipulated to fit his view.

As for taxing the big corporations, Lloyds and HSBC announced 17% and 18% rises in their profits for basically doing nothing as most of the rise was due to interest rates. HSBC are doing a massive share buy back and also paying significant dividends, all this despite a 46% tax rate on them-14% less than someone pays on a salary of £110000 where the marginal rate is 60%.

There is a great deal the government could do if they chose to. They choose not to.
They tinker when bravery and long term planning is needed.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Ok, if you want to focus on child poverty, here is another finding from the JRF (you either believe in their independence and objectivity or you don't). I choose to.

Just focusing on destitution which is ;
People are considered destitute if they have not been able to meet their most basic physical needs to stay warm, dry, clean and fed. This can be because they either lack necessities like clothing, heating, shelter or food. Or because their income is so extremely low that they are unable to purchase these items for themselves.

• Around 3.8 million people experienced destitution in 2022 – a 61% increase since 2019
• This includes around 1 million children – an 88% increase since 2019
• The number of people experiencing destitution in the UK has more than doubled in the last five years – up from 1,550,000 in 2017
• Since 2017 the number of children experiencing destitution has almost tripled – an increase of 186%
• Almost two thirds of people who experienced destitution in 2022 have a disability or chronic health problem
• The social security system is not protecting people from destitution: 72% of those destitute are in receipt of benefits

Very sad. It is a political choice not to address this issue adequately and I include our own Scottish Government who at least have set hard targets for the eradication of child poverty but so far have not shown limited progress they set themselves. Nobody is saying its an easy fix against the current financial backdrop but hard choices need to be made and if it means tax increases for those that earn more than average, so be it.

So 1m kids then. Not 4.5m as Jeremy likes to claim. Anyway this is NOT a hill I want to die on. Child poverty is bad, agreed. Not the subject of the thread though and stupid of me to have mentioned it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Chippers, me old mucker.

You’re starting to sound like me now. We’re both in agreement that everyone needs to share the burden?

I've never had a problem with that... other than I think it's a dangerous road to go down. I'm fundamentally of the belief that in the long term, lower taxes result in a more vibrant and therefore wealthy economy, not high ones. But we're in a hole and IF people want better services then that for the moment is the only option. What pisses me off is people saying they want OTHER PEOPLE's taxes to go up, and then have the bare-faced cheek to try to claim some moral high ground.

 

[BridgyDids]

I've never had a problem with that... other than I think it's a dangerous road to go down. I'm fundamentally of the belief that in the long term, lower taxes result in a more vibrant and therefore wealthy economy, not high ones. But we're in a hole and IF people want better services then that for the moment is the only option. What pisses me off is people saying they want OTHER PEOPLE's taxes to go up, and then have the bare-faced cheek to try to claim some moral high ground.

I see, I must have had you wrong Chippers.

The mirror to this, and obviously I know you wouldn’t be one of these people, but those who’s tax burden would increase to pay for those services, shouldn’t complain that others are getting less of a burden? As it would piss you off to point these people out?

I like your thinking Chippers.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I see, I must have had you wrong Chippers.

The mirror to this, and obviously I know you wouldn’t be one of these people, but those who’s tax burden would increase to pay for those services, shouldn’t complain that others are getting less of a burden? As it would piss you off to point these people out?

I like your thinking Chippers.

I'm not sure I follow you. If someone is paying 45% income tax and 2% so a marginal tax rate of 47% and the government were to decide to increase that so say 50% and 2%, whilst at the same time not increasing the basic rate at all, then no, I think the top rate tax payers would have every right to be complaining about it.

Rarely, but I used to pay that rate in some exceptional years (I no longer do since I've retired) and I can tell you it was fucking galling to see half my pay gone in tax and NI. I can't imagine being anything other than fucking furious had they increased it even further, whilst no-one else was taking any pain.

But ditto, if the basic rate had to go slightly up then I'd have no issue with the higher rates going up slightly as well (not that I pay it, as I say). Ironically I don't think raising the top rate would generate any additional tax revenue but it would not look fair, politically, to leave it untouched.

 

[Saddleworth2]

So 1m kids then. Not 4.5m as Jeremy likes to claim. Anyway this is NOT a hill I want to die on. Child poverty is bad, agreed. Not the subject of the thread though and stupid of me to have mentioned it.

4.5 in poverty, 1.0 in destitution.

just different levels mate.