6th Richest Country in the World?

I've never had a problem with that... other than I think it's a dangerous road to go down. I'm fundamentally of the belief that in the long term, lower taxes result in a more vibrant and therefore wealthy economy, not high ones. But we're in a hole and IF people want better services then that for the moment is the only option. What pisses me off is people saying they want OTHER PEOPLE's taxes to go up, and then have the bare-faced cheek to try to claim some moral high ground.

It’s a redistribution of wealth that’s needed (god knows how though). The issue we have now is money is being concentrated to fewer individuals who end up spending far less than when it’s distributed more across the board.

I’m on a very decent salary. My boss is on an obscene salary and some that work in our team are on obscenely shit ones and the gaps between the levels are growing bigger every year.
 
It’s a redistribution of wealth that’s needed (god knows how though). The issue we have now is money is being concentrated to fewer individuals who end up spending far less than when it’s distributed more across the board.

I’m on a very decent salary. My boss is on an obscene salary and some that work in our team are on obscenely shit ones and the gaps between the levels are growing bigger every year.
I'll wager not as much as my old boss who paid himself $200m per year!
 
My sister is self employed and has paid vastly less tax than me. Seriously vastly less by paying herself mainly in dividends and other ruses.

But to be honest, I think that's fair. I had the relative security of a job that paid me every month (ok, so sometimes there was a lot of pressure and threats of the sack or redundancy). Nothing like the pressure of having no fixed income, nor not earning anything when taking a holiday. People need to be given incentives to start businesses Vs just doing a 9 to 5 job.

Regards corporations, as I said above, wouldn't it be nice if we could attract corporations to try to pay their taxes in the UK rather than e.g. the Cayman Islands. Perhaps if we didn't try to fleece them, they'd actually want to pay it here rather than elsewhere.
But, if they are in the Cayman Islands, they're not paying it anywhere!
Perhaps if Britain stopped running these tax loophole countries, we might all be better off!

In 2022, countries at the UN decided by unanimous consensus to begin the process of establishing a UN framework convention on tax that would move decision-making on global tax rules away from the OECD and to the UN. Countries cited the OECD’s responsibility for designing a global tax system that loses nearly half a trillion dollars to tax havens every year, the OECD’s failure to include the majority of countries meaningfully in its decision-making process, and its failed, decade-long attempt at ending global corporate tax abuse as some of the reasons informing their decision to move beyond the OECD.

Countries are projected to lose $4.8 trillion to tax havens over the next 10 years by staying the course with the OECD, the Tax Justice Network reported in 2023. A UN tax convention was identified as the best possible option available to countries to avert this outcome.

The UK has consistently sought to obstruct the UN process at every milestone since 2022 and has been called out in the press by diplomats for negotiating in bad faith and attempting to “kill” the process. The EU countries were accused of the same but recently withdrew their opposition, leaving the UK further isolated.

At all three votes held in the UN process so far – the first in 2022 decided by unanimous consensus rather than voting, followed by a vote in November 2023 and in August 2024, both of which passed with large majorities – the UK introduced last-minute amendments seeking to water down, delay or entirely erase the outcomes and agreements that countries had secured through negotiations. All UK amendments were summarily rejected by majority vote.

Despite the UK’s consistent attempts at obstruction, opposition to a UN framework convention is shrinking. The latest vote in the process saw the UK and just seven other countries oppose the direction of travel. The other seven were: Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and the US.

https://taxjustice.net/press/tax-ha...ping-world-defenceless-to-british-tax-havens/


I have said it before but we have 0.8% of the world population and 13% of the world's accountants!
 
Which of these countries could be said to have governments with politics broadly as left wing as those of Jeremy Corbyn:

[List of European countries richer than us]

ChatGPT:
"Of the countries you listed, none have governments as broadly and consistently left-wing as Jeremy Corbyn's political platform during his time as UK Labour leader (2015–2020)."

(Not wanting to spam the thread, I will PM you the detailed breakdown if you want)

A) Who you replying to?

B) read the post again, I said most of those countries are closer politically to Corbyn than us not that they are close.

It's saying we went more down the capitalist yank route more than they have and the results have shown that was not the better path.

You can't complain as a low tax capitalist about the state of the country when your ideals have left us here while countries with more socialist values have done better.
Those countries have to be closer to Corbyn otherwise they would be more right wing than us.

List these further right wing countries from your European list.
 
Between £100k and £125k the marginal tax rate is actually 60% due to the loss of the personal allowance. This still affects you if you earn above £125k, thats why everyone on these salaries sticks it in their pension and uses it up on salary sacrifice perks.
I would say the loss of the personal allowance is he most impactful rather than the higher rate of tax. If they just increased the tax slightly, I would be more inclined to take it as paid and not bung it in my pension, which would mean they got more out of me.
One of the big injusticies in the tax system. How is it progressive to go 20%-40%-60%-45%?
 
I'll wager not as much as my old boss who paid himself $200m per year!

No not that much! Although I did hear today that his boss’s son got married last week and as a wedding present, he got given three houses by his dad - one to live in and two to rent out!
 
Tune change or what. You said politics similar to Corbyn, now I have to find ones more right wing than the Tories??? Which is not the same thing at all. No, I'm not playing that game.

You list the majority of them that you claim have similar politics to Corbyn. It was your claim not mine.

You can't be missing the irony that the vast majority of the 'doing better countries' in Europe are closer to Corbyn than we are politically.

Its a bit rich(pun intended) to complain that as a country ruled by less socialist governments we are doing worse than more socialist ones in Europe.

Now now chippy don't be dishonest we don't need a barney, above is my post. I never said similar I said closer. Any country not CLOSER would have to be more to the right than we have been. So name those further right countries from your list.
 
Now now chippy don't be dishonest we don't need a barney, above is my post. I never said similar I said closer. Any country not CLOSER would have to be more to the right than we have been. So name those further right countries from your list.
I don’t accept your argument. You don’t have to be right of the Tories to not be closer to Corbyn. You can be left of the Tories and still nowhere near Corbyn. And please don’t accuse me of dishonesty again else my reply may not be so polite.

And anyway, it’s YOUR claim not mine. The onus is not on me.
 
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I'm not sure I follow you. If someone is paying 45% income tax and 2% so a marginal tax rate of 47% and the government were to decide to increase that so say 50% and 2%, whilst at the same time not increasing the basic rate at all, then no, I think the top rate tax payers would have every right to be complaining about it.

Rarely, but I used to pay that rate in some exceptional years (I no longer do since I've retired) and I can tell you it was fucking galling to see half my pay gone in tax and NI. I can't imagine being anything other than fucking furious had they increased it even further, whilst no-one else was taking any pain.

But ditto, if the basic rate had to go slightly up then I'd have no issue with the higher rates going up slightly as well (not that I pay it, as I say). Ironically I don't think raising the top rate would generate any additional tax revenue but it would not look fair, politically, to leave it untouched.

What I’m getting at Chippers, is that (my reading is) you would be happy with all scenarios other than one which would (most likely) disadvantaged just you:

Eg: you are comfortable with
Richer - pay more // poorer - pay more
Richer - pay the same level // poorer - pay more
Richer - pay the same level // poorer - pay the same level

You are not comfortable with
Richer - pay more // poorer - pay the same level

Am I correct? Or have I misread it?
 
I don’t accept your argument. You don’t have to be right of the Tories to not be closer to Corbyn. You can be left of the Tories and still nowhere near Corbyn. And please don’t accuse me of dishonesty again else my reply may not be so polite.

And anyway, it’s YOUR claim not mine. The onus is not on me.

Yet again I didn't say near, similarr or close to, if we are both on Blackpool beach and i go for a swim I'm closer to Ireland than you, it doesn't mean I'm in O'Rileys having a Guiness ya daft donk. I couldn't give a fuck how polite you are you are either dishonest, stupid or wumming.

We have capitalists socialists left right however you want to term it on here. We have lived for a while now on political principles more in line with your view than the socialists, most of Europe is more socialist than us so like I said you have a nerve complaining about how poor we are doing than more socialist looking countries.

This is really not difficult.
 
What I’m getting at Chippers, is that (my reading is) you would be happy with all scenarios other than one which would (most likely) disadvantaged just you:

Eg: you are comfortable with
Richer - pay more // poorer - pay more
Richer - pay the same level // poorer - pay more
Richer - pay the same level // poorer - pay the same level

You are not comfortable with
Richer - pay more // poorer - pay the same level

Am I correct? Or have I misread it?
Correct ish.

I don’t thing we should increase taxes in the poor and not in the rich. (Your 2nd option)

Also I am not rich. Any increase in the top rates of tax would have no effect on me.
 
Yet again I didn't say near, similarr or close to, if we are both on Blackpool beach and i go for a swim I'm closer to Ireland than you, it doesn't mean I'm in O'Rileys having a Guiness ya daft donk. I couldn't give a fuck how polite you are you are either dishonest, stupid or wumming.

We have capitalists socialists left right however you want to term it on here. We have lived for a while now on political principles more in line with your view than the socialists, most of Europe is more socialist than us so like I said you have a nerve complaining about how poor we are doing than more socialist looking countries.

This is really not difficult.
Surprisingly difficult for you to understand something so simple. It’s you who doesn’t get it. Give me until after my tea and I will draw you a picture, which doubtless will help you.
 
Surprisingly difficult for you to understand something so simple. It’s you who doesn’t get it. Give me until after my tea and I will draw you a picture, which doubtless will help you.

As you haven't cottoned on yet and you like chatgpt(chatshite would be more appropriate, here you have these more socialist and therefore CLOSER(see dictionary definition if struggling) to a Corbyn.


If you’re asking which European countries have more “socialist” policies than the United Kingdom, the clearest comparison is through the lens of welfare state generosity, public spending, and social-democratic governance. By conventional definitions, the UK belongs to the Anglo‑Saxon liberal welfare model, which features a relatively modest welfare state compared to many continental or Nordic peers .

In contrast, countries consistently ranked as more social-democratic—with higher social spending, more universal welfare benefits, and stronger labor‑market interventions—include:


---

Nordic (Social-Democratic) Countries

Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland: These nations belong to the Nordic model, characterized by high decommodification, near‑universal benefits, and strong transfer systems funded by top-tier tax levels. Social spending in Denmark, Finland, and Sweden is about 30% of GDP or more, compared to around 20% in the UK .

Sociological research (e.g. Esping‑Andersen) classifies Denmark, Norway, and Sweden as having “high socialism”—in welfare performance, redistribution, and universalism—whereas the UK is classed as “Anglo‑Saxon” with lower redistribution and less comprehensive decommodification .


Continental (Social Market) States

Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Luxembourg: These countries follow the “social market economy” model. They offer generous welfare states and significant public regulation, though typically less universal than Nordic systems. They still spend around 27% of GDP on social provision—higher than the UK's ~20% .



---

Summary Table

Welfare Model / Country Group Social Spending (% GDP) Welfare Universality & Redistribution Labour/Union Influence

Nordic countries (e.g. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland) ~30%+ Very high—universal services Strong collective bargaining, social cohesion
Continental Europe (e.g. France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands) ~27% High, though often insurance‑based Moderate to strong labor protections
United Kingdom (Anglo‑Saxon model) ~20% Limited; more targeted safety net Lower union density, more liberal labour laws



---

Key Points

1. Nordic countries are regarded as the most socially oriented in Europe—highest per capita welfare expenditure, universal services, low inequality, strong unions, and active labour-market policies .


2. Continental welfare states like France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands offer robust social protection, generous unemployment and family benefits, and heavier regulation—more extensive than the UK but slightly below Nordic universality .


3. The UK’s system is more limited and market‑oriented: welfare spending lower, less universal decommodification, higher inequality, and a smaller role for unions or political social democracy compared to Nordic or continental peers .




---

Anecdotal and public perceptions

Reddit and public commentary often describe Sweden, Norway, and Denmark as “more socialist than the UK,” while also noting that even these are still fundamentally capitalist economies with strong private sectors .

One Reddit summary confirmed:

> “Sweden here. … more socialistic than for example USA or UK … high tax burden lowering it's rating.”
… “Nordic nations aren't socialist, but capitalist with a more expanded welfare state…”





---

✅ Final Answer

So yes, in a policy‑based sense the following European countries are generally considered more “socialist” than the UK because of their higher social spending, stronger redistributive systems, and broader universal welfare:

Nordic states: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland (often Iceland)

Key Continental welfare‑states: France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands (and Austria, Luxembourg)


These countries offer more robust social safety nets, universal benefits, and greater decommodification of essential welfare than the UK, placing them consistently above it on most measures of “socialism” in the social-democratic or welfare-state sense.
 
@hilts Here's my point that you spectacularly failed to grasp:

1753725745279.png
My assertion is that Distance B is smaller than distance A. An oversimplification of course. In reality the EU countries are spread around. But not the point. You asked me to name countries to the right of the Tories. Demonstably, I don't have to.

i.e. you do not have to be further right than the Tories, in order to be closer to EU countries than Corbyn. Corbyn is the outlier. You can argue about where other countries fall on the line. Not the point.

You can apologise for your misunderstaning and rudeness, at your leisure.
 
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I've never had a problem with that... other than I think it's a dangerous road to go down. I'm fundamentally of the belief that in the long term, lower taxes result in a more vibrant and therefore wealthy economy, not high ones. But we're in a hole and IF people want better services then that for the moment is the only option. What pisses me off is people saying they want OTHER PEOPLE's taxes to go up, and then have the bare-faced cheek to try to claim some moral high ground.

You should consider checking your lists. The likes of Norway and Denmark are not low tax economies.
 
Strange people the Swiss. I caught up with a guy who moved out to Zurich for a job a few years back. On moving into his apartment, and him and missus being the sociable type, had an open invite to other residents to call in for a get to know you welcome drink. It had been going on for a couple of hours, people chatting away with a bit of background music, when around 9pm the cops turned up and told him to break it up and threw every out.
A couple that had been to the get together earlier, left at 8:30 went back to their gaff and called in a noise complaint!
 
Regards corporations, as I said above, wouldn't it be nice if we could attract corporations to try to pay their taxes in the UK rather than e.g. the Cayman Islands. Perhaps if we didn't try to fleece them, they'd actually want to pay it here rather than elsewhere.
IMG_20250713_204036.jpg
 
One of the big injusticies in the tax system. How is it progressive to go 20%-40%-60%-45%?

People underestimate this. Those in the 60% bracket are high earners, yes, but not necessarily wealthy. They're too small a group to effect political change, and no one feels sorry for them. But this isn't about sympathy, it's about what’s good for the country. The current tax setup entrenches the class system and ends up costing us more than a properly functioning system would. So why do we ignore it?

This is a serious drag on social mobility. A fiscal wall for working-class people trying to move up. And yet, it barely registers with the public, probably due to the UK’s fondness for cutting down tall poppies.

It’s only getting worse. Inflation is pulling more people into the bracket. And this doesn’t even account for massive student loans or the loss of child tax credits that hit people as soon as they break into this income level.

  • Income tax: 40%
  • PA clawback: 20%
  • NI: 2%
  • Undergrad loan: 9%
  • Postgrad loan: 6%

That’s 77%. And if you’re not from wealth, your only relief is to overpay your pension - which doesn’t help the real economy and ties up money until you're 67. I’ve seen how this kills productivity: people stop pushing for promotions or bonuses because it’s not worth it.

Most people agree higher earners should contribute more and that progressive tax is sound. So why do we tolerate a system where the highest earners pay less?

The best thing Labour could do is scrap the whole mess and rebuild it. Ditch the broken bands, the arbitrary NI split (nobody is "paying into a pot" but half the country thinks they are), the frozen thresholds, and the cliff-edges. Just start again.
 

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