6th Richest Country in the World?

[inbetween]

The big change to put Ireland up there for GDP per capita is Brexit.

Broadly False.

Look at the GDP per capita growth of Ireland and match it against a graph on corporation tax in Ireland. They implemented a 12.5% corporation tax rate in 2001 and well look at the acceleration despite a dip for 2008. This is primarily responsible because otherwise why is the rest of Europe doing crapper than we are?

Brexit isn't really featured but of course Ireland may become attractive but that's primarily because taxation is low and companies think hey let's move to Ireland to position our company in a favourable tax system for Europe. The UK was never a low tax haven country prior to Brexit so not much has been lost.

Brexit isn't the prime problem but what is certainly featured within the degradation here are the actions of successive Conservative governments.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Broadly False.

Look at the GDP per capita growth of Ireland and match it against a graph on corporation tax in Ireland. They implemented a 12.5% corporation tax rate in 2001 and well look at the acceleration despite a dip for 2008. This is primarily responsible because otherwise why is the rest of Europe doing crapper than we are?

Brexit isn't really featured but of course Ireland may become attractive but that's primarily because taxation is low. Brexit isn't the prime problem but what is certainly featured is the actions of successive Conservative governments.

Whilst that is true. They also provide the multi nationals that have moved there a base and access to the rest of the EU. That must also help that steep acceleration.

 

[inbetween]

Whilst that is true. They also provide the multi nationals that have moved there a base and access to the rest of the EU. That must also help that steep acceleration.

Perhaps but that hasn't been reflected in the figures so it may as well be regarded as irrelevant.

GDP per capita is crap and has been crap since 2008 long before the referendum took place therefore it doesn't stack up that Brexit is having some other impact on this topic.

I've constantly asked on the Brexit thread for folk to indicate where Brexit occurred on the below graph but nobody can tell me. They just quote studies by academics, academics who are paid to get a specific result which as of today isn't reflected in real data. COVID is meanwhile very visible and so is the 2008 crash but I cannot see Brexit.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

This is the lie that has been sold for many years. We somehow believe that we're a rich country but you only have to walk around to see how false this is. What we really have is a powerful financial sector and a powerful London in the south which vastly skews everything else.

For anybody north of this or not working in the financial sector then it's essentially a fight over scraps and suckling at the teat. This is made even worse given successive governments are heavily London focused or even as with our last PM the country is run by the kind of people who have only worked in the financial sector.

Other countries are far better regionalised, Germany is the largest country by GDP in Europe and yet it doesn't have a specific capital economically. Each city has its own strengths whereas London just out muscles every other city here economically by a factor of 10 or more.

Unfortunately this has all come from the fact that London and its minority overclass has always been more important and so investment and infrastructure spending will always remain focused there. That isn't going to change anytime soon and the only solution is to well move to London but the irony is nobody can afford to do it, not even Londoners!

Corbyn isn't the solution either, what is really required is an industrial revolution in the regions but it isn't going to happen no matter how hard he or anybody else tries.

Spot-on. The wealth generated in the City of London leaves the UK or stays in the South. The Uk outside the South East is poor. In fact we have some of the poorest areas in Europe.The GDP myth is just a big con.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Perhaps but that hasn't been reflected in the figures so it may as well be regarded as irrelevant.

GDP per capita is crap and has been crap since 2008 long before the referendum took place therefore it doesn't stack up that Brexit is having some other impact on this topic.

I've constantly asked on the Brexit thread for folk to indicate where Brexit occurred on the below graph but nobody can tell me. They just quote studies by academics, academics who are paid to get a specific result which as of today isn't reflected in real data. COVID is meanwhile very visible and so is the 2008 crash but I cannot see Brexit.

I'm not sure I can answer that as we left the EU in Dec 20 and Covid ran 20/21. Certainly growth in GDP pre Covid/Brexit was better than post. Its immaterial now as we ain't going to rejoin so the question is what the hell do we do about growth as that is the only way we will climb out of the spiral of mediocrity we currently find ourselves in. The Irish model is interesting how they fueled that growth must be more complex than cutting corporation tax. Maybe someone with more grounding on that subject could comment.

 

[Vic]

Whilst that is true. They also provide the multi nationals that have moved there a base and access to the rest of the EU. That must also help that steep acceleration.

Broadly true.

 

[philfodenswristsock]

"What is this Socialism that we hear so much about, but which so few understand? What is it, and what does it mean?’
Then, raising his voice till it rang through the air and fell upon the ears of the assembled multitude like the clanging of a funeral bell, he continued:
‘It is madness! Chaos! Anarchy! It means Ruin! Black Ruin for the rich, and consequently, of course, Blacker Ruin still for the poor!’

Toil-worn women, most of them dressed in other women’s shabby cast-off clothing – weary, tired-looking mothers who fed their children for the most part on adulterated tea, tinned skimmed milk and bread and margarine, grew furious as they thought of the wicked Socialists who were trying to bring Ruin upon them.

It never occurred to any of these poor people that they were in a condition of Ruin, Black Ruin, already. But if Sweater had suddenly found himself reduced to the same social condition as the majority of those he addressed, there is not much doubt that he would have thought that he was in a condition of Black Ruin.

The awful silence that had fallen on the panic-stricken crowd, was presently broken by a ragged-trousered Philanthropist, who shouted out:
‘We knows wot they are, sir. Most of ’em is chaps wot’s got tired of workin’ for their livin’, so they wants us to keep ’em.’

Encouraged by numerous expressions of approval from the other Philanthropists, the man continued:
‘But we ain’t such fools as they thinks, and so they’ll find out next Monday. Most of ’em wants ’angin’, and I wouldn’t mind lendin’ a ’and with the rope myself"

 

[BlueHammer85]

Spot-on. The wealth generated in the City of London leaves the UK or stays in the South. The Uk outside the South East is poor. In fact we have some of the poorest areas in Europe.The GDP myth is just a big con.

There’s very many poor areas in the south east.

 

[NPBlue]

I read an interesting report in the Financial Times a while ago that questioned how our lives are compatible with living in the 6th richest country on Earth.

People earning over £80,000 a year have a standard of living that is, broadly speaking, on a par with our status.

Middle income earners would enjoy a higher standard of living if they were in countries like Poland or Czechia, and the majority of the population on average earnings have a standard of living similar to those in places like central America.

The authors of the report balanced out factors like healthcare, standards of education, housing costs relative to earnings and so on.

It stated our inequality of wealth between the rich and poor is one of the worst in the world, and that imbalance would continue to deteriorate. In short, it concluded that most people in the UK are effectively living in a poor country, with a few pockets of wealth here and there.

 

[Blue Maverick]

My brother lives in Geneva.
He lives out in the burbs surrounded by incredible scenery.
But...it's a bit of an emotionally cold place. Can't say I got a love for the place working around the city when I visited him, as picturesque as it was.

I've loved my trips to the Netherlands however. Everything seems 'looked after' with a sense of pride. There's a hell a lot of cultural stuff going on too so wouldn't be missing out on gigs etc.
Can't say I saw any deprived high street after hight street with buddleja growing form the brickwork.
Bikes left outside all the homes (but no 'us and them' between cars and cyclists. A grown up pragmatism is evident.

Think my daughter may end up living there (she has a boyfriend who lives not far from Amsterdam.

I'd happily give that a whirl (and perhaps some of those Scandi countries but they can be ever expensive).

Or move to Rochdale where they just spent £2million on a cycle park in the middle of Kirkholt for the kids, my neighbour went with her kids apparently it’s a shithole already, kids have thrown rubbish and takeaways all over it, she got dogs abuse for not been around there by 7/8 year olds, fucking country is a disgrace I wouldn’t waste a penny on it as no one gives a fuck anymore.
Young girl chased at knife point for her phone in Royton, kids targeted for their bikes, if I was 30 years younger I’d be off to New Zealand.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

 

[inbetween]

I'm not sure I can answer that as we left the EU in Dec 20 and Covid ran 20/21. Certainly growth in GDP pre Covid/Brexit was better than post. Its immaterial now as we ain't going to rejoin so the question is what the hell do we do about growth as that is the only way we will climb out of the spiral of mediocrity we currently find ourselves in. The Irish model is interesting how they fueled that growth must be more complex than cutting corporation tax. Maybe someone with more grounding on that subject could comment.

If the EU was so attractive and Brexit was so bad then we'd see every European country doing well and not us but that isn't happening, many EU countries are doing worse than we are. The likes of Spain have a smaller economy today than they did pre-2008. There is clearly something unique about Ireland and it can only be their tax status.

Some will say that businesses have relocated to Ireland for EU market access but that hasn't really affected UK GDP and every other figure is the same so either it's actually not happening or it doesn't matter so who cares?

I still maintain that these problems are the governments fault. The Tories burnt our infrastructure to the ground to the point that nothing works. Another measure is productivity and productivity has been stalled for decades, basically ever since 2008 where we got a Tory government that has cut everything to the bone. We've then had successive massive events such as COVID which have destroyed us.

The problem exposed really is government is no longer run for people. I didn't agree with her but Liz Truss was going to have policies independent of cold economics and the markets brought her down. That is what will happen now, governments have to bow to the mercy of financial pirates who control economic policy.

If Keir Starmer wants to invest £500bn in the economy or cut taxes then he can't because these people will bring him down, it'll be the same for Corbyn. Massaging the markets is why they continually talk about balancing the books despite the truth being that nobody has balanced the books for decades given the UK fiscal deficit is £120bn per year.

 

[Palerider]

I read an interesting report in the Financial Times a while ago that questioned how our lives are compatible with living in the 6th richest country on Earth.

People earning over £80,000 a year have a standard of living that is, broadly speaking, on a par with our status.

Middle income earners would enjoy a higher standard of living if they were in countries like Poland or Czechia, and the majority of the population on average earnings have a standard of living similar to those in places like central America.

The authors of the report balanced out factors like healthcare, standards of education, housing costs relative to earnings and so on.

It stated our inequality of wealth between the rich and poor is one of the worst in the world, and that imbalance would continue to deteriorate. In short, it concluded that most people in the UK are effectively living in a poor country, with a few pockets of wealth here and there.

What standard of living do most people want? As far as I can see most of us are doing just fine. Nearly 34 Million cars are on the road, all those very, very expensive Oasis tickets were sold (to the super rich? I don't think so), Glastonbury, Leeds, Reading festivals sold out. City, with our relatively working class support, have around 36,000 season ticket holders. Many people have multiple holidays per year. Everyone has a mobile phone, tablet, TV etc. Every second shop opened, near me anyway, seems to be a fast food outlet, so a lot of people must be eating 'out'.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If the EU was so attractive and Brexit was so bad then we'd see every European country doing well and not us but that isn't happening, many EU countries are doing worse than we are. The likes of Spain have a smaller economy today than they did pre-2008. There is clearly something unique about Ireland and it can only be their tax status.

Bingo.

And yet the prevailing rhetoric on here as to how to solve our fiscal challenges is "clobber the corporations".

Whereas, as Ireland demonstrates, the opposite is what drives growth.

Brexit gives us the opportunity to make positive changes. We just have to grab the opportunity and provide incentives for companies to invest here. Not ones to put them off. Funny that.

Tax breaks, grants, get our energy costs down (i.e. stop Millibrain keep signing energy contracts at above market rates). Build it and they will come.

 

[Saddleworth2]

If the EU was so attractive and Brexit was so bad then we'd see every European country doing well and not us but that isn't happening, many EU countries are doing worse than we are. The likes of Spain have a smaller economy today than they did pre-2008. There is clearly something unique about Ireland and it can only be their tax status.

Some will say that businesses have relocated to Ireland for EU market access but that hasn't really affected UK GDP and every other figure is the same so either it's actually not happening or it doesn't matter so who cares?

I still maintain that these problems are the governments fault. The Tories burnt our infrastructure to the ground to the point that nothing works. Another measure is productivity and productivity has been stalled for decades, basically ever since 2008 where we got a Tory government that has cut everything to the bone. We've then had successive massive events such as COVID which have destroyed us.

The problem exposed really is government is no longer run for people. I didn't agree with her but Liz Truss was going to have policies independent of cold economics and the markets brought her down. That is what will happen now, governments have to bow to the mercy of financial pirates who control economic policy.

If Keir Starmer wants to invest £500bn in the economy or cut taxes then he can't because these people will bring him down, it'll be the same for Corbyn. Massaging the markets is why they continually talk about balancing the books despite the truth being that nobody has balanced the books for decades given the UK fiscal deficit is £120bn per year.

If the government introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness, surely the market reaction would be less negative?

Markets crave three things:

• Credibility – proven commitment to fiscal responsibility.
• Clarity – detailed, realistic plans—not vague slogans.
• Consistency – long-term thinking that survives political cycles.

Truss failed on most of the above.

A UK plan that combined; public investment, targeted tax reform, serious skills policy, planning reform and a stable growth framework, would be more likely to restore investor confidence and make UK equities and infrastructure projects more attractive. As I said earlier, we tinker where what is needed (and the only thing that will work) is a targeted strategic long term plan that is brilliantly communicated to the electorate.

 

[BrianW]

What standard of living do most people want? As far as I can see most of us are doing just fine. Nearly 34 Million cars are on the road, all those very, very expensive Oasis tickets were sold (to the super rich? I don't think so), Glastonbury, Leeds, Reading festivals sold out. City, with our relatively working class support, have around 36,000 season ticket holders. Many people have multiple holidays per year. Everyone has a mobile phone, tablet, TV etc. Every second shop opened, near me anyway, seems to be a fast food outlet, so a lot of people must be eating 'out'.

It's complex because not everyone in a given area (or country) is poor. I'm sure there are people in Uganda driving about in very nice cars and owning huge areas of land with numerous cattle. But most Ugandans live on about £30-£40 a year.

Similarly, where I live, there's plenty of evidence of affluence. Lovely cars, smart houses with £1000s being spent on new kitchens, bathrooms and God knows what, restaurants and cafes packed out. But in the same broad community, there are people with fuck all, living off food banks. Now, of course, some of this poverty is self-inflicted, caused by (for example) idleness, poor education and drug habits, but that's not true of all, and anyway the poverty still exists.

How any government solves this, I haven't a clue. What I do know is that having a precarious underclass (often whipped into anger by social media and the newspaper industry) is very bad for social order and cohesion.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

There’s very many poor areas in the south east.

Agreed. The country has been totally neglected. Some places in the South West like Cornwall are on their knees. It is much more nuanced than just a North-South divide.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

There’s very many poor areas in the south east.

Agreed. The country has been totally neglected. Some places in the South West like Cornwall are on their knees. It is much more nuanced than just a North/South divide.

 

[BrianW]

There's also rural poverty. Albeit, that is complex too. I recently met a farmer whose land is worth £5 million but whose income is next to fuck all. (He does labouring work in the week to make ends meet.) Now, you could say he should sell up, buy a nice house and live off the other £4 million. Not easy, is it?

 

[inbetween]

If the government introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness, surely the market reaction would be less negative?

Markets crave three things:

• Credibility – proven commitment to fiscal responsibility.
• Clarity – detailed, realistic plans—not vague slogans.
• Consistency – long-term thinking that survives political cycles.

Truss failed on most of the above.

A UK plan that combined; public investment, targeted tax reform, serious skills policy, planning reform and a stable growth framework, would be more likely to restore investor confidence and make UK equities and infrastructure projects more attractive. As I said earlier, we tinker where what is needed (and the only thing that will work) is a targeted strategic long term plan that is brilliantly communicated to the electorate.

I suppose the problem is circular, we need to goto the markets to borrow but at the same time we need to borrow without the imposition of crazy conditions upon that borrowing but this is impossible.

In a way I suppose it's the equivalent of Accrington Stanley wanting to improve their club by borrowing money to buy Messi and other great players. Nobody is going to lend that money so the club stays shite and that's where we are. The whole credibility rule has arguably meant that we've been imprisoned by our own financial system. The proof is really in the pudding given austerity and 'credibility' has turned everything to shit over the last 20 years.

A good example is the NHS, we know the NHS is broken and it needs money or some sort of change to fix it. If we borrowed £50bn then perhaps that could fix it. That amount however could never be funded through tax increases so how would the markets react to lending? They'd probably bring down Starmer so the government is categorically prevented by external factors from investing in the NHS. Win win for the financiers, terrible for us.

The one thing that Tony Blair did was spend and invest and the country grew. The problem today is the financial climate isn't the same and it's so perilous that the financiers and markets now basically run the country because they control all of the levers.