Former Players Lost Millions

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I think some of the comments are a bit unfair and fail to appreciate human nature somewhat.

If someone has worked for their money and trusted their financial advisor to invest it on their behalf, and not only did that money disappear but they are then faced with a eye watering tax bill which means financial ruin then anyone is entitled to feel devastated by that.

It wasn’t a tax dodge, it was a government backed investment scheme and so those players were completely entitled to think it was legit.

As someone who has great trust placed in him by others in the course of my job I understand what a sacred responsibility that is. And I think people who consciously break such a bond of trust are cunts.

I actually knew quite a few people in that documentary twenty or so years ago, in and around Nottingham, including the two blokes from Kingsbridge who I was on nodding terms with and engaged in some small talk from time to time (McMenamin went out with my mate’s ex) and to be frank I didn’t get hugely bad vibes from either of them, so if I didn’t pick that up then I’m not going to criticise a footballer for missing it too.

By a weird twist of fate I got talking to a lawyer about this a couple of years ago who was acting for some of the players, and so I’m now reasonably well informed about what went on - which was reprehensible on Kingsbridge’s part, if not criminal, at least based on that conversation.

So I do have some sympathy for those players. Even Brian Deane who I also knew back then and never liked. He was as miserable back then as he was on that documentary.

Whilst they might have trusted these blokes, the value of your investment can go down as well as up. Diversification is your hedge against financial disaster when you’re investing and they should have been aware of what was happening.
I invested in the Woodford fund that went tits up, had a significant shareholding in UK Oil and Gas that’s now ‘worth’ less than 0.1% of what went in and a solid holding in Thomas Cook which went bust.
It’s all part of the ups and downs of investment.

Now, all that being said, I’m not unsympathetic to these fellers but, they’re now being supported by some politicians with a suggestion of compensation and/or the setting aside of tax owed, which sounds like an expensive precedent.
As with much of UK PLC, it’s yet more socialism for the rich supported by crushing capitalism for the poor.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Whilst they might have trusted these blokes, the value of your investment can go down as well as up. Diversification is your hedge against financial disaster when you’re investing and they should have been aware of what was happening.
I invested in the Woodford fund that went tits up, had a significant shareholding in UK Oil and Gas that’s now ‘worth’ less than 0.1% of what went in and a solid holding in Thomas Cook which went bust.
It’s all part of the ups and downs of investment.

Now, all that being said, I’m not unsympathetic to these fellers but, they’re now being supported by some politicians with a suggestion of compensation and/or the setting aside of tax owed, which sounds like an expensive precedent.
As with much of UK PLC, it’s yet more socialism for the rich supported by crushing capitalism for the poor.

I certainly don’t agree that there should be any exceptionalism from an HMRC perspective. It would plainly be contrary to the public interest.

And I totally get that anyone investing in a scheme must accept it can’t be without risk.

I think the principal issue here for me is the double whammy, with the tax liability being deferred rather than avoided altogether. In those circumstances any person investing those sums should have been even more alive to the level of risk involved in the investment, given the tax liability at the other end. Investing in some greenfield development in Florida certainly does not sit on all fours with that.

 

[Blue Mist]

The answer to your first Q is Ched Evans

Ha ha, good point but of course Evans did invest millions with dodgy financial people.

 

[Pontypool Blue]

Maybe they could ask Andy Burnham and Seb Crow to represent them in the HMRC cases, I've heard they are shit hot at trying to spend our money on unworthy causes

 

[Lavinda Past]

As someone who has lost ‘everything’ in the space a couple of years: business went, bankruptcy, car and home repossessed, marriage fell apart, I know how losing what you’ve had can feel, although I accept that much of what happened was down to the decisions I made.

But I also know that things like health and family are far more important and having reduced financial circumstances isn’t the end of the world. And all of the footballers on that documentary seemed in good physical health.

So my sympathy is somewhat limited, but I understand how it must feel to trust someone in that way and for it to be broken in such an impactful way, especially when you have a family to support.

The thing I've noticed about football people is that most land on their feet after problems. Many have a network of friends in the game opening new doors for them; management, coaching, TV punditry / adverts etc.

Something that 'the common man' could occasionally do with in life!

Such is the world ...

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The thing I've noticed about football people is that most land on their feet after problems. Many have a network of friends in the game opening new doors for them; management, coaching, TV punditry / adverts etc.

Something that 'the common man' could occasionally do with in life!

Such is the world ...

Not sure it’s most, but it’s certainly a sizeable minority. Guess it depends how you define ‘football people’. I think there’s plenty of lower league players that aren’t looked after in the way you describe once they retire.

 

[Lavinda Past]

Not sure it’s most, but it’s certainly a sizeable minority. Guess it depends how you define ‘football people’. I think there’s plenty of lower league players that aren’t looked after in the way you describe once they retire.

I live in mid Wales now and you wouldn't believe how many ex-players (mainly Welsh lads obviously) are involved in 'low level' coaching, and TV sport shows, effectively being looked after by old pals in football, picking up a decent few quid along the way.

It's a sign of strong local sporting communities here in Wales, that may not exist to the same extent in England.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I live in mid Wales now and you wouldn't believe how many ex-players (mainly Welsh lads obviously) are involved in 'low level' coaching, and TV sport shows, effectively being looked after by old pals in football, picking up a decent few quid along the way.

It's a sign of strong local sporting communities here in Wales, that may not exist to the same extent in England.

Yes, but it’s not unexpected or unwarranted for people who have worked in a particular profession, with the knowledge they have built up in the field, to get work in that area later in their lives. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I’m sure they are far better qualified than me to do the job I’m sure!

 

[Blue Mist]

@gordondaviesmoustache I've read your posts which in some ways are in defence of the ex players.
I'd like to put it another way.
I think people who have struggled financially know the value of the money they've earned.
I had nowt and little education. Hard graft (overtime, for one) and saving money got me through the early years of marriage and children.Money was tight.
Now, for a number of reasons, I have some money. Most is invested with a bloke/company that I researched. I talk to him and get reports 4 times a year. I ask him questions. No fucker is getting my hard earned without me asking questions.
He has detailed high risk strategies I could do but ultimately it was my choice and I said no.
The lack of sympathy on this thread is, imo, because posters are like me thinking 'didn't you check how the investment was doing'.
They could also be asking 'why didn't you diversify why trust 2 blokes with all your money'
I do not have a better education than the ex footballers mentioned, perhaps too much money came too easy to them, perhaps they were greedy but ultimately, I have little sympathy.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

@gordondaviesmoustache I've read your posts which in some ways are in defence of the ex players.
I'd like to put it another way.
I think people who have struggled financially know the value of the money they've earned.
I had nowt and little education. Hard graft (overtime, for one) and saving money got me through the early years of marriage and children.Money was tight.
Now, for a number of reasons, I have some money. Most is invested with a bloke/company that I researched. I talk to him and get reports 4 times a year. I ask him questions. No fucker is getting my hard earned without me asking questions.
He has detailed high risk strategies I could do but ultimately it was my choice and I said no.
The lack of sympathy on this thread is, imo, because posters are like me thinking 'didn't you check how the investment was doing'.
They could also be asking 'why didn't you diversify why trust 2 blokes with all your money'
I do not have a better education than the ex footballers mentioned, perhaps too much money came too easy to them, perhaps they were greedy but ultimately, I have little sympathy.

I think the money coming ‘too easily’ is bound to be a factor. Having viewed a few footballers at close quarters over the years something that has struck me is how much their lives are organised and overseen by others. Trips away are organised, the kit is washed for them, boots cleaned for them etc…and if they are senior enough, personal trips away, can even be organised by others. They just need to make sure they turn up on time (which is why so many of them are very punctual).

So this will be an extension of that. Not many footballers are going to take direct control of their finances like you did.

You will have had to think for yourself in a way they are institutionally shielded from. It’s why so many of them are bankrupt after retiring I’ll hazard.

They also have much longer being retired and and as such are making decisions about their retirement fund when many people haven’t even started planning for it.

So there is some mitigation, albeit limited. Like I said I’m not overwhelmed with sympathy but I do feel a little sorry for anyone who has trusted someone who is in a regulated profession who has had that breach of trust shattered in that way. Investments can go wrong for lots of reasons but these two were being utterly reckless with the money of people who trusted them and were entitled to imo. Don’t think that makes them all greedy per se, just somewhat naive partly because of the world they’ve grown up in.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Let’s face it, most footballers brains are in their feet.

It’s horrible though whoever it happens to.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Their plight was discussed in PMQs today.

 

[NPBlue]

I think the money coming ‘too easily’ is bound to be a factor. Having viewed a few footballers at close quarters over the years something that has struck me is how much their lives are organised and overseen by others. Trips away are organised, the kit is washed for them, boots cleaned for them etc…and if they are senior enough, personal trips away, can even be organised by others. They just need to make sure they turn up on time (which is why so many of them are very punctual).

So this will be an extension of that. Not many footballers are going to take direct control of their finances like you did.

You will have had to think for yourself in a way they are institutionally shielded from. It’s why so many of them are bankrupt after retiring I’ll hazard.

They also have much longer being retired and and as such are making decisions about their retirement fund when many people haven’t even started planning for it.

So there is some mitigation, albeit limited. Like I said I’m not overwhelmed with sympathy but I do feel a little sorry for anyone who has trusted someone who is in a regulated profession who has had that breach of trust shattered in that way. Investments can go wrong for lots of reasons but these two were being utterly reckless with the money of people who trusted them and were entitled to imo. Don’t think that makes them all greedy per se, just somewhat naive partly because of the world they’ve grown up in.

Forging signatures kind of sums up what their motives were about. It wasn't recklessness. It was fraud. Pure and simple.

Don't defend the indefensible.

They took advantage of them for their own personal gain in much the same way 'financial advisors' ripped off the miners a few years earlier.

Maybe that's where they learned their craft, bullshitting people and laughing all the way to the bank.

Those guys were full of it, but I'm pleased you do at least have a modicum of sorrow for those now losing everything they have.

Yeah, it's not the advisors fault, it's the gullibility of the victims that's the problem.

 

[city2]

All because of greed fuck em no sympathy from me.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I don't really get the criticism here. I've only read a little bit about this, but it seems that the 'financial advisors' were basically advising them to invest in something they had an interest in. That's straight up a crime (or at least it is now, I'm not sure at the time). Aren't footballers supposed to invest for their future? We hear all the time that it's a short career, and if Danny Murphy hadn't had all of his money stolen, he wouldn't need to work so much, and we wouldn't have to be subjected to him on our TVs all the time.

Ultimately, investing is always a risk, but if you do the sensible thing and hire a financial advisor as a (let's face it) kid, you expect them to do their job properly. It's one thing to get unlucky, but it seems like these people were scammed by criminals.

No doubt we'll be hearing the same thing in 10 or 20 years time with current footballers losing all their money in some crypto scam or some investment app that's gone bust and taken all their money with it.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Forging signatures kind of sums up what their motives were about. It wasn't recklessness. It was fraud. Pure and simple.

Don't defend the indefensible.

They took advantage of them for their own personal gain in much the same way 'financial advisors' ripped off the miners a few years earlier.

Maybe that's where they learned their craft, bullshitting people and laughing all the way to the bank.

Those guys were full of it, but I'm pleased you do at least have a modicum of sorrow for those now losing everything they have.

Yeah, it's not the advisors fault, it's the gullibility of the victims that's the problem.

I previously posted that their conduct was possibly criminal and your English comprehension skills must be seriously deficient if you think I’ve defended them in any way.

If the fraud was as straightforward to prove as you appear to be suggesting then they would have been charged by now and the documentary was conspicuously nebulous on this forged signature point.

 

[richardtheref]

And on the other hand a friend of mine played for Middlesbrough late 80s, early 90s. Now a coach at Chelsea. Had to retire at 27 because of injury. His agent got him to invest in property in Docklands when it was being developed.
Because of this he didn't need to work ever again. Late 90s he was earning approximately £17k a month from his properties.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

@gordondaviesmoustache I've read your posts which in some ways are in defence of the ex players.
I'd like to put it another way.
I think people who have struggled financially know the value of the money they've earned.
I had nowt and little education. Hard graft (overtime, for one) and saving money got me through the early years of marriage and children.Money was tight.
Now, for a number of reasons, I have some money. Most is invested with a bloke/company that I researched. I talk to him and get reports 4 times a year. I ask him questions. No fucker is getting my hard earned without me asking questions.
He has detailed high risk strategies I could do but ultimately it was my choice and I said no.
The lack of sympathy on this thread is, imo, because posters are like me thinking 'didn't you check how the investment was doing'.
They could also be asking 'why didn't you diversify why trust 2 blokes with all your money'
I do not have a better education than the ex footballers mentioned, perhaps too much money came too easy to them, perhaps they were greedy but ultimately, I have little sympathy.

Well said. I speak to my IFA on a regular basis and get updates whenever I want them so I can see where my money is and what it is doing. I am, at present, sorting out my late sister in law and her husband’s estates and they had a stockbroker who gave them quarterly reports on how their investments were doing. If they didn’t do that then they were stupid. Especially if you lost that amount you would have seen it coming. Perhaps they didn’t care enough to look.

 

[Kippax Street 1880]

Hahaha!

Ever noticed that it's usually thick British players who get ripped off? Gullible kids with unscrupulous agents becone gullible adults.

Back in the good old days, players retired and took over a pub or became driving instructors.

Read Johan Cryuffs book, this guy did not have a single braincell that wasn't geared towards football. He ended up skint aswell.

 

[supercity88]

@gordondaviesmoustache I've read your posts which in some ways are in defence of the ex players.
I'd like to put it another way.
I think people who have struggled financially know the value of the money they've earned.
I had nowt and little education. Hard graft (overtime, for one) and saving money got me through the early years of marriage and children.Money was tight.
Now, for a number of reasons, I have some money. Most is invested with a bloke/company that I researched. I talk to him and get reports 4 times a year. I ask him questions. No fucker is getting my hard earned without me asking questions.
He has detailed high risk strategies I could do but ultimately it was my choice and I said no.
The lack of sympathy on this thread is, imo, because posters are like me thinking 'didn't you check how the investment was doing'.
They could also be asking 'why didn't you diversify why trust 2 blokes with all your money'
I do not have a better education than the ex footballers mentioned, perhaps too much money came too easy to them, perhaps they were greedy but ultimately, I have little sympathy.

I read this and immediately pictured Kemi Badenoch telling us how she worked in McDonald's so was working class.

Back to the point I do agree with what you're saying but if you come into money, having had very little growing up, you can very easily be 'conned' (not necessarily illegally) into investing your money in the wrong things.

My father was a toolmaker by the way.