What has the UK become under the far right influence?

[City Hobgoblin]

If that’s what you think then fair enough but to me the brexit vote was the result of a build up of issues over many years. Cause and affect.

The build up to, and fallout from the Brexit vote was when everything got cranked up to toxic and abusive levels.

 

[bluethrunthru]

what a pair of cunts

 

[The perfect fumble]

Really? The left vs right debate on taxes is on the level and distribution of the taxes. But I've never met anyone who doesn't think, once those levels have been established, that allowing people to avoid paying through dodgy schemes and clever accounting tricks is a bad idea (except for very specific taxes they disagree with on principle, like inheritance tax).

The only people in favour of such things are those with a financial interest in keeping them open. The fact that Starmer or his predecessors didn't close such loopholes isn't evidence that they think it's an unpopular position, it's evidence that it wouldn't please their paymasters, and/or that they are using such loopholes themselves.

The evidence for this is that despite never doing anything significant about it, they will nevertheless pay lip service to closing tax loopholes and cracking down on dodgy tax arrangements throughout their term. Even David 'tax haven' Cameron did this. There's not a single politician who has come out and argued that these tax loopholes are necessary and a positive for the country, because they know it'd be political suicide, precisely because they know that public opinion is overwhelming on this from both left and right-leaning people.

You may well be right about the motivation around not closing tax loopholes, but the question was to do with "a fair tax rate" and the left, I think the phrase used was radical left, either way what is a "fair" tax rate is not a given, in fact, as you're no doubt aware, it's very much a contentious political issue and it's fair to say that debate follows a marked left/right divide.

 

[Vic]

Cheers mate butI'm not interested in what it says..I only know they won't help her find anywhere..they put her on housing list but said it could be 2 years before she is at top of the list.
There is a severe lack of social housing in the Bury area apparently due to social housing being sold off under right to buy and half those council houses now being in the hands of private landlords.

Fixed

 

[Vic]

its become a place where bots and bad actors can post this shit - and they will catch some dumb bastards in their net - note its Indonesia

A bit like the burqas on a bus scandal!

 

[Vic]

Try Bolton at Home (bolton council)

Have they not got a waiting list?

 

[Vic]

Maybe.

The left is ill suited for this kind of thing. When at your core you're a class based ideology, workers of the world unite you have nothing to loose but your chains kinda thing and lets all sing The Internationale, concepts like patriotism, nationalism even the nation state itself are a bit of an ill fit, particularly if you see it all as a con by the establishment to undermine class solidarity by divide and rule, you have to ask yourself is their heart really in it?

The right always accuses the left of being unpatriotic and it's mostly bollocks, but only mostly. Corbyn's new party is ridiculed by his opponents as the Gaza Party and it lingers coz there's a grain of truth to it, a party more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby. Starmer insists Labour Party offices fly the Union Jack and his insistence tells you something.

The clincher in all this is the left's rejection of ethno nationalism and its replacement with the completely vacuous civic nationalism, and this ties in with the left's rejection of the idea of an indigenous population. When the arsehole Tommy Robinson says the left has abandoned the white working class, arsehole or not he's absolutely right, the left does not recognise the white working class at all as a separate category, it's all oppressed and oppressor for them. So what's going on now is simply bad faith actors agitating the more unsavoury elements of the proletariat to take out their frustrations on the handy scapegoats, the immigrants. It's all very nice and tidy and fits neatly into their ideology and solves precisely nothing.

Why would you not be more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby? Grimsby isn't subject to genocide.

The rest is just ridiculous. You've started the paragraph with your own dodgy argument about "the left" and ended with scapegoating immigrants because of "their ideology"? Is that the ideology of the left or the bad faith actors agitating "unsavoury elements of the proletariat"? Or is it really "the left" stirring up the anti-immigrant demos?

 

[Vic]

There are of course many right wingers who do not have a racist bone in their body, but right wing ideology, which is predominantly individualistic, rather than left wing ideology which is collectivist, lends itself more naturally to rationalise a hierarchical society based, they tell themselves, on merit, and when they see the rich north and the poor south, it's an easier hop, skip and a fart for the right to see racial superiority underpinning that hierarchy than it is for left wingers who see only oppressed and oppressors.

It is not left wing to welcome vulnerable people? As an ideology it is, if right wingers do so it is because of religious beliefs or a charitable disposition, but their politics? It's all a bit Scrooge "are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

It's not left wing to expect taxation fairness you say. I'm sorry mate I had to have a giggle at that.

You state it's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with. For the right if international law gets in the way of self interest, if you can swerve it you do.

As for "label it lefty and we can get away with anything" well the left has tried to get away with the female penis so you're probably right on that one.

So anything that means being nice to people is so "left" that being "right" means it's OK to be a racist, not to welcome vulnerable people, OK not to have taxation unfairness, not to comply with international law.

 

[stonerblue]

Have they not got a waiting list?

Dunno, but they have got a lot of new flats in Radcliffe

 

[The perfect fumble]

Why would you not be more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby? Grimsby isn't subject to genocide.

The rest is just ridiculous. You've started the paragraph with your own dodgy argument about "the left" and ended with scapegoating immigrants because of "their ideology"? Is that the ideology of the left or the bad faith actors agitating "unsavoury elements of the proletariat"? Or is it really "the left" stirring up the anti-immigrant demos?

Because Gaza is not in the UK and Grimsby is.

The government should have a position on Gaza for sure, but its priority is here, first and foremost.

Here is a list of countries where conflict, war and starvation are presently at a critical point.

There are thirteen in all, there are more....

https://www.concern.net/news/countries-in-conflict

With the exception of Ukraine that directly effects our safety, not one of these conflicts should be more important than Grimsby for any UK political party, with the possible exception of the Greens, and certainly not for a party that ever wants to be in government.

As for the ideology of immigrants? Have you been drinking? I sometimes post when I'm pissed, it's never a good idea, but this is next level.

 

[The perfect fumble]

So anything that means being nice to people is so "left" that being "right" means it's OK to be a racist, not to welcome vulnerable people, OK not to have taxation unfairness, not to comply with international law.

Being nice to people?

Taxation fairness? The right want to pay as little tax as possible, hasn't anyone told you? Welcome to vulnerable people? This is next level kumbaya. International law? We sign up for stuff that serves our interests and we don't if it don't. If Farage gets in he'll try to leave the ECHR, if he succeeds he'll have a sizeable chunk of the British people backing him, he'll want to leave the Refugee Convention, he won't, but if he did he'd have more folk on his side than on yours that's for sure.

This is the political reality of the UK in 2025, did no one send you the memo?

In your indignation you're digging to find offence in my posts but there's nowt there, so you're making shit up, the only crime I seem to have committed is I've offended your sensibilities, you're in a hole, stop digging.

Have you ever stopped to think that you've morphed into a 21st Century Victorian? There's a certainty about your posts, a whiff of the moral high ground, that your position is superior because it is, self evidently, it's why you can't defend it, because clearly you don't feel the need to and don't have the wherewithal to do so if you tried. Everyone should think as you do and if they don't they clearly have dubious intentions.

Progressives always fall in to the trap of assuming that their position is the "correct" position, the "nice" position, the "fair" position and con themselves into believing that more people believe the things they do than actually do, and the shock when that realisation dawns is wonderful to observe in a guilty schadenfreude kinda way.

P.S I've just had a light bulb moment, you're one of Theresa May's.... "If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere."

 

[oldius]

Because Gaza is not in the UK and Grimsby is.

The government should have a position on Gaza for sure, but its priority is here, first and foremost.

Here is a list of countries where conflict, war and starvation are presently at a critical point.

There are thirteen in all, there are more....

https://www.concern.net/news/countries-in-conflict

With the exception of Ukraine that directly effects our safety, not one of these conflicts should be more important than Grimsby for any UK political party, with the possible exception of the Greens, and certainly not for a party that ever wants to be in government.

As for the ideology of immigrants? Have you been drinking? I sometimes post when I'm pissed, it's never a good idea, but this is next level.

War has a direct impact on global migration.
Given immigration is the constant message of priority, why would any politician in the UK not make the situation in Gaza a priority, and that is without considering the growing polarisation and likely civil disobedience resulting from the UK's ongoing support for Israel?

 

[ob]

All kicking off in Sutton (south London) last week or so. Some flags got put up in town centre. People from a bar/restaurant had argument with those putting up the flags. Couple days later the bar/restaurant had it's windows smashed on the eve of a Proud to be British march down the high street with a counter protest on side streets.

The bar/restaurant does a lot of work for charity, has music nights, evenings where you can eat then pay what you can afford, free coffee /drinks for people who are struggling or need a chat. They set up fundraising and asked for £10k, ended up with over £40k so going to get shutters and CCTV cameras as well.

All the staff are volunteers and they've not been able to open again yet

The council have made a statement to say flags will be removed as they are against the law

 

[The perfect fumble]

why would any politician in the UK not make the situation in Gaza a priority

They have, hence...

the UK's ongoing support for Israel

So...

growing polarisation and likely civil disobedience

Is the price they're willing to pay.

Why?

Because clearly the UK government believes that it's in our own self interest that what's happening in Gaza and on the streets here, is of lesser importance than our continued support for Israel.

Inside the bubble Gaza is paramount, outside of it not so much. Never mind Reform and the Tories who don't give a fuck, at the very top of this government when they see Gaza they don't see genocide they see Hamas.

Solving the problem in Gaza isn't going to keep Labour in office, even if that were possible for a British government to achieve and it isn't, but solving the problems in places like Grimsby will and they know it.

This might be a shocking revelation, outside the bubble most Brits view Gaza, if they view it all, as "oh dear, how sad, never mind".

 

[oldius]

They have, hence...



So...



Is the price they're willing to pay.

Why?

Because clearly the UK government believes that it's in our own self interest that what's happening in Gaza and on the streets here, is of lesser importance than our continued support for Israel.

Inside the bubble Gaza is paramount, outside of it not so much. Never mind Reform and the Tories who don't give a fuck, at the very top of this government when they see Gaza they don't see genocide they see Hamas.

Solving the problem in Gaza isn't going to keep Labour in office, even if that were possible for a British government to achieve and it isn't, but solving the problems in places like Grimsby will and they know it.

This might be a shocking revelation, outside the bubble most Brits view Gaza, if they view it all, as "oh dear, how sad, never mind".

Gaza should be a global priority, along with the other genocides currently taking place.
I'd rather Labour sort it but I don't care who does.
Continued support for Israel will be viewed, historically, as a devastatingly bad choice, IMO.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Gaza should be a global priority, along with the other genocides currently taking place.
I'd rather Labour sort it but I don't care who does.
Continued support for Israel will be viewed, historically, as a devastatingly bad choice, IMO.

In the UK and elsewhere in the west, Gaza is a political priority for those with a dog in the race and the comfortable middle classes.

For those outside the bubble? They have other priorities.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

All kicking off in Sutton (south London) last week or so. Some flags got put up in town centre. People from a bar/restaurant had argument with those putting up the flags. Couple days later the bar/restaurant had it's windows smashed on the eve of a Proud to be British march down the high street with a counter protest on side streets.

The bar/restaurant does a lot of work for charity, has music nights, evenings where you can eat then pay what you can afford, free coffee /drinks for people who are struggling or need a chat. They set up fundraising and asked for £10k, ended up with over £40k so going to get shutters and CCTV cameras as well.

All the staff are volunteers and they've not been able to open again yet

The council have made a statement to say flags will be removed as they are against the law

All those peaceful protesters just trying look after their community!

 

[meltonblue]

Maybe.

The left is ill suited for this kind of thing. When at your core you're a class based ideology, workers of the world unite you have nothing to loose but your chains kinda thing and lets all sing The Internationale, concepts like patriotism, nationalism even the nation state itself are a bit of an ill fit, particularly if you see it all as a con by the establishment to undermine class solidarity by divide and rule, you have to ask yourself is their heart really in it?

The right always accuses the left of being unpatriotic and it's mostly bollocks, but only mostly. Corbyn's new party is ridiculed by his opponents as the Gaza Party and it lingers coz there's a grain of truth to it, a party more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby. Starmer insists Labour Party offices fly the Union Jack and his insistence tells you something.

The clincher in all this is the left's rejection of ethno nationalism and its replacement with the completely vacuous civic nationalism, and this ties in with the left's rejection of the idea of an indigenous population. When the arsehole Tommy Robinson says the left has abandoned the white working class, arsehole or not he's absolutely right, the left does not recognise the white working class at all as a separate category, it's all oppressed and oppressor for them. So what's going on now is simply bad faith actors agitating the more unsavoury elements of the proletariat to take out their frustrations on the handy scapegoats, the immigrants. It's all very nice and tidy and fits neatly into their ideology and solves precisely nothing.

Ok, to respond to this further. I don’t think seeing it in binary terms of either civic or ethno nationalism or left and right helps, it’s an import from American commentary as their political system is binary and that’s exactly what the right wing in particular want to change the debate to over here. It’s not as simple as that, there are multiple versions of civic nationalism and ethno nationalism in its purest form, even someone like Putin doesn’t align to. It also doesn’t work to equate it directly to left vs right (it does more in America but again that’s an import people are trying to make) as it’s too binary. People aren’t just left or right and even if they are, that doesn’t necessarily dictate where they sit when it comes to civic nationalism. You can see that in how Labour and Conservative parties have done volte faces over Europe over the decades.

Rather than do a lengthy post, google has helped me find this paper, which I agree a lot with and I think from your posts, you’ll resonate with a fair amount of it too -

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14608944.2021.2006169#d1e235

 

[oldius]

In the UK and elsewhere in the west, Gaza is a political priority for those with a dog in the race and the comfortable middle classes.

For those outside the bubble? They have other priorities.

They don't when the boats arrive through Europe from the Middle East.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Forced myself to watch a hour long interview with 'concrete grower' Mike Graham.

He has a big following which believes anything he says on TalkTV. Surprisingly he's 'big mates' with Nigel and is defending reform as a party that 'doesn't needs a policy on everything'.

He proudly boasts getting his guests to call out the government in extreme ways.

This is what feeds the narrative of the hard of thinking. And theres far more of it now.

The only thing I agree on is accusing Westminster journalists of being client journo's for fear of losing their access.