What has the UK become under the far right influence?

[johnny crossan]

... The dam of nationalist truth is collapsing under the weight of a tidal wave of information from uncontrolled sources, as Donald and Mandelson will now be feeling as hackers drip daily content. It can be held back no more, and it will be revealed. It is terrifying, exciting, revealing, and exposing, and some will relish it, while others will detest and reject it.

Apocalyptic predictions like these are precisely the outcome extremists on both sides make in their attempts to manufacture mass social unrest and dislocation in pursuit of power. The contemptible mobs disrupting transport, attacking our military, damaging our institutions of government, wrecking hostels, destroying statues are as much the creatures of media manipulation by hostile states as the right and left wing anarchists flooding twitter, tik tok, FB & instagram etc etc with their lies and dysinformation. I recommend Adam Curtis as a useful guide to what's happening

The Century of the Self - 1. Happiness Machines

The relationship between the father of psychoanalysis Sigmund Freud, and his nephew Edward Bernays, who invented the profession of public relations.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[oldius]

Apolcalyptic predictions like these are precisely the outcome extremists on both sides make in their attempts to manufacture mass social unrest and dislocation in pursuit of power. The contemptible mobs disrupting transport, attacking our military, damaging our institutions of government, wrecking hostels, destroying statues are as much the creatures of media manipulation by hostile states as the right and left wing anarchists flooding twitter, tik tok, FB & instagram etc etc with their lies and dysinformation. I recommend Adam Curtis as a useful guide to what's happening

The Century of the Self - 1. Happiness Machines

The relationship between the father of psychoanalysis Sigmund Freud, and his nephew Edward Bernays, who invented the profession of public relations.

www.bbc.co.uk

The truth is not apocalyptic, unless you have abused minors.

For the rest, it is an opportunity to rebuild society with a greater togetherness and understanding. Hiding it will do the opposite because it involves lying to the public.

 

[ballbag]

Quick recap: We’ve had circles, we’ve had strawmen — all we’re missing now is a point

 

[johnny crossan]

The truth is not apocalyptic, unless you have abused minors.

For the rest, it is an opportunity to rebuild society with a greater togetherness and understanding. Hiding it will do the opposite because it involves lying to the public.

Genuinely surprised by that comment.

 

[oldius]

Genuinely surprised by that comment.

Why? Perhaps I should have prefaced my opening with, 'in the case of the Epstein files'. My apologies if it was not clear what I was referring to.

It relates to the concealment of truth that is currently being revealed online. It involves the rich and powerful across the Atlantic.

The concealment of the truth about Winston Churchill, both good and bad, leads to later, unpleasant discovery, as does the truth about the slave masters who gave so benevolently to cities like Bristol and Liverpool, and whose statues were targeted. Now, the traditional view of Israel, decades in the teaching, is exposed to new information about politicians receiving funds from Israeli lobby groups, and the supply of weaponry in multi-billion pound deals. Israel is being rejected, en-masse, in global displays of protest because the truth is being revealed by the minute on social media, while the mainstream remains silent.

How it relates to the original question of the thread is in the polarisation of society, oft described as right Vs left, where some want the natural order to be preserved with traditions and customs based on generations of teaching, while others have no such loyalty to the past, nor to their nation. I don't personally think we can hold it back any longer, and things will reach a peak before a better way is found.

 

[Vic]

Or maybe they see something they want to be a part of.

The miserabilists in here see nothing virtuous or commendable about this country, but clearly those folk do, the one thing you see in all these videos is how proud they are, it's clearly more than just a certificate and a passport for them. I see none of that pride from the nice, kind, caring cult in this thread.

Anyone up for pissing on those folk for abandoning their culture, their heritage, for kissing the ring of their former colonial oppressors?

Another non-sequitur post.

 

[inchy14]

Strikes me you don't hate anyone other than those you disagree with, which a quick back of an envelope calculation comes to millions of Brits, otherwise you're an easy going hail fellow well met.

Are you on drugs? What the fuck are you on about?

 

[threespires]

I very much doubt it's true, and unhelpful as it is, the idea that one of the new playground insults this school year is "yer da paints roundabouts and yer ma shouts at hotels" did make me laugh.

 

[Vic]

I absolutely advocate looking at different historical accounts. My point is that is exactly what young people are doing. They will choose their truth. They will, hopefully examine Churchill from the perspective of Britain and from India, where his decision to effectively sacrifice 3 million people is viewed alongside his views and expressions about Indian people. They will learn of the Congo and Leopold's colonisation of it, and the horrific abuses that took place, as well as the rise of Belgium while others faltered. We were denied that, and were more inclined to 'believe'.

I welcome the interpretations that you quote. I understand that they are that author's truth. I don't dismiss it, nor have any reason to, and I hope that it would be considered alongside a more global view of the Empire, based on modern thinking and in terms of the different thinking at various points in history. My 'lumping' in of other colonising nations is simply as a defence against the 'whataboutists'. I have no doubt that I have much to learn of their particular histories, as the @The perfect fumble highlights. I am an educator, so my desire is for education and the revealing of truth, not in hiding it in an attempt to direct thinking.

A friend works for the National Trust. In attempting to deliver a more nuanced education, which exposes the ownership of the stately homes of Britain to the magnifying glass of human slavery, she and her colleagues are suffering daily abuse from the National Trust's dominant membership demographic, and from sections of the media, who express their disgust at her 'wokism' and encourage people to consign their membership to the bin, as many have done.

We have digressed, but contextually this is where the tension lies, and why there is such global polarisation. The dam of nationalist truth is collapsing under the weight of a tidal wave of information from uncontrolled sources, as Donald and Mandelson will now be feeling as hackers drip daily content. It can be held back no more, and it will be revealed. It is terrifying, exciting, revealing, and exposing, and some will relish it, while others will detest and reject it.

I don't think the National Trust need worry about losing an older demographic who want their assumptions to go unchallenged.

Press Release | Media

The number of new 18–25-year-olds choosing to join the National Trust grew 39% in the last year, the charity’s annual report, released today, has revealed.

www.nationaltrust.org.uk

 

[Vic]

Why? Perhaps I should have prefaced my opening with, 'in the case of the Epstein files'. My apologies if it was not clear what I was referring to.

It relates to the concealment of truth that is currently being revealed online. It involves the rich and powerful across the Atlantic.

The concealment of the truth about Winston Churchill, both good and bad, leads to later, unpleasant discovery, as does the truth about the slave masters who gave so benevolently to cities like Bristol and Liverpool, and whose statues were targeted. Now, the traditional view of Israel, decades in the teaching, is exposed to new information about politicians receiving funds from Israeli lobby groups, and the supply of weaponry in multi-billion pound deals. Israel is being rejected, en-masse, in global displays of protest because the truth is being revealed by the minute on social media, while the mainstream remains silent.

How it relates to the original question of the thread is in the polarisation of society, oft described as right Vs left, where some want the natural order to be preserved with traditions and customs based on generations of teaching, while others have no such loyalty to the past, nor to their nation. I don't personally think we can hold it back any longer, and things will reach a peak before a better way is found.

Is there a Reform Friends of Israel / Mossad group yet?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Are you on drugs?

Haliborange.

What the fuck are you on about?

A social contract.

 

[Vic]

So anyone remotely critical of our nation's history, or merely aware (woke) of it, turns out to be a hater of said nation.

That's an utter oddball conclusion - like thinking you can't see Churchill as a hero for his drunken bravado in WW2 and also a villain for his mistakes (bombing Arabs, sending a gun boat up the Mersey to threaten strikers).

It is getting harder to enjoy the jingoistic origins of Last Night of the Proms but it's still a national (at least English) annual highlight - hopefully with lots of Palestinian and Ukrainian flags.

Bottom line. If I hadn't by accident of birth been British and were suddenly now given a choice of citizenship, would I choose a British passport? I like the nice EU burgundy passport - black is so dull - and it offers freedom of movement in the continent I would want to live in. So maybe Ireland (common travel area so no problem watching City), or a Scandinavian country, but reliable socialised medical care a must. And ultimately somewhere where I don't have to ask what the country had become under far right influence.

 

[johnny crossan]

Why? Perhaps I should have prefaced my opening with, 'in the case of the Epstein files'. My apologies if it was not clear what I was referring to.

It relates to the concealment of truth that is currently being revealed online. It involves the rich and powerful across the Atlantic.

The concealment of the truth about Winston Churchill, both good and bad, leads to later, unpleasant discovery, as does the truth about the slave masters who gave so benevolently to cities like Bristol and Liverpool, and whose statues were targeted.

How it relates to the original question of the thread is in the polarisation of society, oft described as right Vs left, where some want the natural order to be preserved with traditions and customs based on generations of teaching, while others have no such loyalty to the past, nor to their nation. I don't personally think we can hold it back any longer, and things will reach a peak before a better way is found.

I'm not sure I follow your argument here. The Epstein files may have been concealed by Trump but sources used for historical accounts of Churchill, slave traders, the British Empire, imperialism etc have not been concealed from anybody as far as I know. For example TV historian David Olusoga's 'forgotten' histories, beloved of the colonial reparations squad, are not the product of new research but of skilful political framing of highly selective data. He's not alone of course and right wing apologists like David Irving & Niall Fergusson do precisely the same - I prefer my historians of reference like Basil Davidson & AJP Taylor to be dead albeit fairly recently so.

 

[oldius]

I don't think the National Trust need worry about losing an older demographic who want their assumptions to go unchallenged.

Press Release | Media

The number of new 18–25-year-olds choosing to join the National Trust grew 39% in the last year, the charity’s annual report, released today, has revealed.

www.nationaltrust.org.uk

My friend's work, which involved much soul searching, and for which her and her colleagues suffered continual abuse. The purpose was in the recognition of the need to gain more younger members, and to properly educate the young people who visit historical sites with schools and colleges.

 

[The perfect fumble]

And ultimately somewhere where I don't have to ask what the country had become under far right influence.

As Brits we have no experience of that in our history.

The new continental you wouldn't need to ask, most places you'd already know.

 

[blueinsa]

So anyone remotely critical of our nation's history, or merely aware (woke) of it, turns out to be a hater of said nation.

That's an utter oddball conclusion - like thinking you can't see Churchill as a hero for his drunken bravado in WW2 and also a villain for his mistakes (bombing Arabs, sending a gun boat up the Mersey to threaten strikers).

It is getting harder to enjoy the jingoistic origins of Last Night of the Proms but it's still a national (at least English) annual highlight - hopefully with lots of Palestinian and Ukrainian flags.

Bottom line. If I hadn't by accident of birth been British and were suddenly now given a choice of citizenship, would I choose a British passport? I like the nice EU burgundy passport - black is so dull - and it offers freedom of movement in the continent I would want to live in. So maybe Ireland (common travel area so no problem watching City), or a Scandinavian country, but reliable socialised medical care a must. And ultimately somewhere where I don't have to ask what the country had become under far right influence.

You wouldn’t be able to knock on doors or pontificate on this thread if you left.

Please stay ;-)

 

[oldius]

I'm not sure I follow your argument here. The Epstein files may have been concealed by Trump but sources used for historical accounts of Churchill, slave traders, the British Empire, imperialism etc have not been concealed from anybody as far as I know. For example TV historian David Olusoga's 'forgotten' histories, beloved of the colonial reparations squad, are not the product of new research but of skilful political framing of highly selective data. He's not alone of course and right wing apologists like David Irving & Niall Fergusson do precisely the same - I prefer my historians of reference like Basil Davidson & AJP Taylor to be dead albeit fairly recently so.

They are concealed in the teaching of history in schools.

The wider point is that we have a tension between 'patriots' and 'the left', as some of your language hints at. It is being played out on our streets.

 

[johnny crossan]

My friend's work, which involved much soul searching, and for which her and her colleagues suffered continual abuse. The purpose was in the recognition of the need to gain more younger members, and to properly educate the young people who visit historical sites with schools and colleges.

Was she personally shocked to discover the British were slave traders or profited from the practice along with virtually everybody else? Perhaps it was that reminding NT patrons about the sins of the nobility when they are trying recapture a glimpse of our nation's former glories wasn't appreciated.

They are concealed in the teaching of history in schools.

Not in my schooling in the 50s and not these days either. I think that's a woke myth.

 

[oldius]

Was she personally shocked to discover the British were slave traders or profited from the practice along with virtually everybody else? Perhaps it was that reminding NT patrons about the sins of the nobility when they are trying recapture a glimpse of our nation's former glories wasn't appreciated.

Not in my schooling in the 50s and not these days either. I think that's a woke myth.

This is the tension I speak of.
She wasn't shocked.
Are you advocating that the truth remains concealed?

 

[blueinsa]

This is the tension I speak of.
She wasn't shocked.
Are you advocating that the truth remains concealed?

It’s 2025 ffs.

The Middle East is a powder keg.

We are facing possible world war again and you want to harp on about the fucking slave trade ffs

What exactly is it you want to uncover that’s buried?

What truth needs telling that we will all breathe a sigh of relief knowing hundreds of years on from the fact?