What has the UK become under the far right influence?

[The perfect fumble]

We have always been a country of immigrants though, that is a fact.

No we're not. In fact there's a great deal more truth that historically we're really more a country of emigrants.

 

[PepsFleece]

The most annoying thing is that the tories decimated the country and all Labour had to do was not fumble the bag, and they've fumbled big time.

 

[oldius]

No we're not. In fact there's a great deal more truth that historically we're really more a country of emigrants.

Of course we are:
Anatolians, Beaker Folk, Gauls, Saxons, Normans, Romans, Hugenots, Germans, Polish, Irish, West Indians, Asians. Our history is steeped in it.
Yes, plenty have left too.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Hardship.
In difficult times, and there have been so many in recent years, those in difficult circumstances will seek others to blame.
Some politicians take advantage of that. Some papers do too. They feed the natural beast that lurks in some people. As more and more begin to be more open about their feelings, it legitimises and emboldens others.
Dangerous times, whichever side of the divide you occupy.

Spare me divide and rule and manufactured scarcity.

No one is buying it, or more precisely too few are. Fuck false consciousness eh? And the Daily Mail and GB News! and bluethrunthru's beloved racists and morons. You just need one more push and the sleeping masses will awake and see the world as you see it.

Please do me a favour you're not going to change hearts and minds with that tired old codswallop. Beside this bollocks came off the same production line as multiculturalism, critical race theory, DEI and the male cervix, their niche models mate and they break down when you start the engine.

 

[oldius]

Spare me divide and rule and manufactured scarcity.

No one is buying it, or more precisely too few are. Fuck false consciousness eh? And the Daily Mail and GB News! and bluethrunthru's beloved racists and morons. You just need one more push and the sleeping masses will awake and see the world as you see it.

Please do me a favour you're not going to change hearts and minds with that tired old codswallop. Beside this bollocks came off the same production line as multiculturalism, critical race theory, DEI and the male cervix, their niche models mate and they break down when you start the engine.

Spare you discussion?
What are you here for?
If you don't want to understand the underpinnings of where we are, that's on you.
You can state HOW things are as much as you like.
They are, generally, as you state, for the people you speak for, or about.
That does not mean that they have not been brought to the place they are in by the circumstances they find themselves in, and by those politicians and papers who make money from it.
MAGA is a great example of that.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Of course we are:
Anatolians, Beaker Folk, Gauls, Saxons, Normans, Romans, Hugenots, Germans, Polish, Irish, West Indians, Asians. Our history is steeped in it.

Tiny numbers, stretched over centuries, you could fit the Normans into the South Stand with a slight over spill into Colin Bell. Believing something, even believing it fervently does not make it true and when your starting point is false, everything that follows does not get any better.

 

[oldius]

Tiny numbers, stretched over centuries, you could fit the Normans into the South Stand with a slight over spill into Colin Bell. Believing something, even believing it fervently does not make it true and when your starting point is false, everything that follows does not get any better.

A country of much historic immigration remains the case.
I am still a bit unsure of what your point is.
And I have tried to listen to it, often reacting positively to some things you have said.
I go back to the OP's question.
We have become a divided, polarised society, dissuaded from listening and entrenched in our views.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Spare you discussion?
What are you here for?
If you don't want to understand the underpinnings of where we are, that's on you.
You can state HOW things are as much as you like.
They are, generally, as you state, for the people you speak for, or about.
That does not mean that they have not been brought to the place they are in by the circumstances they find themselves in, and by those politicians and papers who make money from it.
MAGA is a great example of that.

Spare me divide and rule and manufactured scarcity, in the same way I'd ask you to spare me the divine right of kings.

Coz it doesn't hold up.

bluethrnthru's morons and racists might be the public face of what's going on and Labour are in peril in their working class heartland, if they still have one, but there's more than a whiff of the well heeled leafy shires and get this! It has a younger profile than one would expect. Anyways let's ignore the stuff that doesn't fit and get back to racism and class struggle eh? it's cosier there away from things like reality and facts and whatnot.

 

[The perfect fumble]

A country of much historic immigration remains the case.

Because I can't prove England has been hermetically sealed since its establishment in 927 AD then you win?

Sorry mate, that's pathetic on an epic scale.

 

[oldius]

Spare me divide and rule and manufactured scarcity, in the same way I'd ask you to spare me the divine right of kings.

Coz it doesn't hold up.

bluethrnthru's morons and racists might be the public face of what's going on and Labour are in peril in their working class heartland, if they still have one, but there's more than a whiff of the well heeled leafy shires about this and get this! It has a younger profile than one would expect. Anyways lets ignore the stuff that doesn't fit and get back to racism and class struggle eh? it's cosier there away from things like reality and facts and whatnot.

I still don't understand your point.
Yes, there are swathes of people who are struggling. Yes, there are swathes of people who have a problem with immigration. Yes, we have greater level of immigration in recent years than historically.
Is that your point?

 

[oldius]

Because I can't prove England has been hermetically sealed since its establishment in 927 AD then you win?

Sorry mate, that's pathetic on an epic scale.

Not really. I said we have always been a nation of immigrants and then proved it, from a historical perspective. If your point is that we have greater levels of immigration now, then of course that is true. It is also true of nearly every nation in the western world, and will continue to be the case at an accelerating rate.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I still don't understand your point.
Yes, there are swathes of people who are struggling. Yes, there are swathes of people who have a problem with immigration. Yes, we have greater level of immigration in recent years than historically.
Is that your point?

This is my point...

No, they are anti what they perceive immigration has become, a threat not just for resources, houses and whatnot, but an existential threat to the country they think they live in and consequently their own identity. There are racists that are exploiting this and fanning those fears, let's state that from the get go, but they've never had this level of traction before and that traction comes from a mass rejection of multiculturalism.

What these flags represent is a political statement that states in no uncertain terms that there's an indigenous population in this country, that there is an over arching culture and those that choose to live here must recognise that fact. That citizenship brings with it benefits yes, but it also brings obligations and those obligations should include a commitment to integrate into the prevailing culture and to learn English. Cultural identities are sacrosanct but only insofar as they comply with the laws of the land.

Cultural festivals, religious worship, have at it, great, we're a free country, but that country is Britain and it's more than just a land mass. No more "diversity is our strength", it's not, it's a lie and people know it. More unity is our strength and that must come with a new social contract between the people and the state based on honesty and the pursuit of common purpose. Less all cultures are equal, they're not and certainly not in a country with an over arching culture like ours, less DEI and more "When in Rome".

If "progressive" folk in here don't like it, fine, do nothing and see how that works out, as I stated earlier if reasonable people's reasonable demands are not addressed reasonably they end up being addressed unreasonably.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Not really. I said we have always been a nation of immigrants and then proved it.

Of course you did.

 

[oldius]

This is my point...

Then I don't understand why you continue to make it.
I thought I grasped it, I did, and then you repeatedly made it until such time as I lost my sense that I understood you.
What are you getting from the discussion other than banging your head against a wall?

I know what some people believe, as do you.
The question is what the solutions are because immigration is not going to stop, especially when half of the world is in dire economic condition, or affected by war and climate change.
Most people across the globe want to assimilate. It isn't nice to feel like you are an outsider. People want to work and earn money for their family, to be sheltered and to feel safe. Personally, I enjoy embracing other cultures. That is why I live where I live and enjoy Kurdish food, Lebanese, Indian, and Yemeni right on my doorstep. I enjoy spending time in those communities. I get a daily thrill at the sheer vibrancy of it. It is also why I migrated to Romania for a while and thoroughly enjoyed my time in that nation. I feel no more British than I do a global citizen. I accept that you feel very differently.

Having worked in a country with a declining population, and seen the economic impact and forecasts, I would take advantage by investing in infrastructure and public services.
The only way to do that in the short-term, is through tax reform, as I stated much earlier in the thread. I think proportional representation is the only political way forward.

 

[Jimmieblue]

Of course you did.

What is this “Far Right” nonsense. We are not and never will be a “Far Right” country. The phrase is thrown about too freely as is “fascist”. These phrases are stifling debate. There are real problems to be addressed and the people have recognised them before the so-called Governments of the last 20 odd years. All these problems have not been addressed and the easy way out for them in power backed by the media is to call the concerned people “Far Right”. If you can’t see that, then the country will stagnate.

 

[BlueHammer85]

sadly i know of plenty going to a few London derbies tomorrow and will head to the protests after, more for a laugh and check it out. will be bigger than expected and likely alot of trouble.

 

[oldius]

Of course you did.

Thanks.

 

[oldius]

What is this “Far Right” nonsense. We are not and never will be a “Far Right” country. The phrase is thrown about too freely as is “fascist”. These phrases are stifling debate. There are real problems to be addressed and the people have recognised them before the so-called Governments of the last 20 odd years. All these problems have not been addressed and the easy way out for them in power backed by the media is to call the concerned people “Far Right”. If you can’t see that, then the country will stagnate.

I think the point has been made that the people in power, backed by the media, are more likely to label people lefties, wokes and snowflakes. I accept your point that labels are not helping, but I feel that that is deliberate social engineering to cement voting patterns.

 

[The perfect fumble]

What is this “Far Right” nonsense. We are not and never will be a “Far Right” country. The phrase is thrown about too freely as is “fascist”. These phrases are stifling debate. There are real problems to be addressed and the people have recognised them before the so-called Governments of the last 20 odd years. All these problems have not been addressed and the easy way out for them in power backed by the media is to call the concerned people “Far Right”. If you can’t see that, then the country will stagnate.

The country will stagnate economically without a new generation of young productive workers and as we're not producing enough of them ourselves then we need immigrants to fill the gap.

That argument is irrefutable.

But there are consequences, and you alluded to them when you stated it is the....

easy way out for them in power backed by the media is to call the concerned people “Far Right”.

And they do that to discredit the concerns of the concerned people, because they don't want to deal with those concerns, those consequences, because their politics prevents them from doing so. So they leave the field open for the far right and the racists to swoop in and steal the narrative, then they point at the concerned people and scream....."Aha! I told you they were far right racists"

 

[The perfect fumble]

Thanks.

You don't do sarcasm then?